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Coronavirus – The Status of the Outbreak and 4 Possible Scenarios

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41–46 of 46 posts

Re: Coronavirus – The Status of the Outbreak and 4 Possible Scenarios

#41
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why we can't stop travelling? Way too many things/people depend on traveling. You can't stop the world for such a small thing. We should take precautions, probably more than what we do now, but stopping the world isn't going to work. Don't fall for the fear mongering too, it kills less than the flu: https://blogs.sas.com/content/graphicallyspeaking/files/2019... and has a death rate of 2%. It's serious but not end…

It kills fewer total than the flu right now, but that’s a specious comparison. The flu infects orders of magnitude more every year. If this becomes as widespread as the flu and kills 2% (20-50x as many as the flu) and puts another 10-20% in the hospital, it’ll be total global pandemonium. Healthcare systems will collapse, supply chains will collapse, economic depressions, etc. “Only 2%” sounds so benign, but that’s a…

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/flu_pneumonia_mort...

Let's panic when it's time to panic, in the meantime it's business as usual. You add "virus" and "china" in the same sentence and people start to lose their shit way to easily. We had worse before, we'll be just fine.

Re: Coronavirus – The Status of the Outbreak and 4 Possible Scenarios

#42

There are those that dreamed of this happening. Those that wanted the massive decoupling between the United States and China. Those that wanted to see China suffer, fail, collapse, and devolve into another destructive civil war; while the United States remains ascendant. Well, their dreams might be about to come true. This coronavirus was the perfect economic weapon that was dropped in the heart of China. And not eve…

You know what I find really interesting? If Trump screws up the response to this virus (like by cutting the CDC's budget in the middle of a crisis) then the people most vulnerable are the same demographic as Trump's supporters.

The interesting thing is that the Trump supporters benefited the most, but they just didn’t realize it.

They blamed China for taking their jobs, and Trump capitalized on it. A foreign country with people that don’t look like yourself, or even speak the same language, and with a different political system was an easy target to scapegoat.

What they failed to realize was the impact that technology and automation had on their lives.

Do you see people working inside the heart of a car manufacturing factory anymore? No, it’s all robotic. What used to take hundreds of men, is now streamlined into an assembly line of 10 robots.

First, in the 80s and 90s, Walmart came and killed off the small businesses, but at least they provided some minimum wage jobs in their stores. Then, Amazon came and killed off the remaining smaller retailers, and tried to kill off Walmart. No more minimum wage cashier jobs, but more jobs for delivery people and warehouse workers.

Then, the software and hardware got better, that it started to replace those minimum wage cashiers jobs. Then robots got better, that they even started replacing the warehouse jobs.

But the United States had the benefit of creating technology over the past 70 years, and massively benefiting from the royalties that followed. Qualcomm doesn’t physically make any phones or computer chips, but 50% of their revenue comes from China.

Other jobs in technology like software, engineering, design, QA, project management, etc., were created in relation to technology, but these are not celebrated. Microsoft spawned a lot of software companies. Apple spawned a lot of smaller software businesses vying for space in their app market. But it seems none of these are celebrated in the world of Trump supporters.

Meanwhile, the Trump supporters benefited handsomely in one area: farming. Massive windfalls were made in selling grains and soy to China, who eagerly bought it all. The industrialized farms were literally printing money. And they thought they deserved that business, as if it was a god given right to them.

Maybe they got greedy, but more likely, they fell for the charm of a charlatan, and voted Trump into office, to take on the China problem. You know, the exact foreign customer that was buying up all their farm products. This baffles the mind on how they couldn’t make this connection.

Then in one fell swoop, Trump took that all away. Farm bankruptcies went higher and higher under Trump. He came in and demonized the very customer that was buying their products.

And now we have the coronavirus, and those dreams of decoupling the two economies of China and the United States, are about to come true.

The question is: are those Trump supporters ready for the ensuing fallout?

Re: Coronavirus – The Status of the Outbreak and 4 Possible Scenarios

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what I find really interesting? If Trump screws up the response to this virus (like by cutting the CDC's budget in the middle of a crisis) then the people most vulnerable are the same demographic as Trump's supporters.

The interesting thing is that the Trump supporters benefited the most, but they just didn’t realize it. They blamed China for taking their jobs, and Trump capitalized on it. A foreign country with people that don’t look like yourself, or even speak the same language, and with a different political system was an easy target to scapegoat. What they failed to realize was the impact that technology and automation had on…

I won't address the content of your post here - there's too much to go through and too little time.

But, I will say that Trump's supporters are both ready and unready for the fallout.

Ready because they're essentially decoupled from actual facts and information and fed entirely on the "truth" from him and his allies, so they won't ever blame him for anything.

Unready because they're not capable of handling reality, and regardless of who they are told is the reason for their problems, they have to live with it.

Re: Coronavirus – The Status of the Outbreak and 4 Possible Scenarios

#44

> In the optimistic scenario, a month from now we can calculate, from data outside mainland china, that the CFR is perhaps .3% or below What so absurd is it will take the world a month to know how serious this virus is. By that point it's likely too late to do anything to stop it. It's beyond disgusting that China is putting the entire world's population at risk due to pride and ego. Essentially "we'd rather screw ov…

This is a country the forced doctors at gun point to perform live delivery abortions in order to enforce the one child rule. A good friend's sister was a Obgyn in China, and when women were discovered with their second pregnancy they would be brought in for abortions even if the baby was full term. Doctors would either comply or have guns drawn and be threatened, doctors who failed to comply would be taken away, neve…

[deleted]

Re: Coronavirus – The Status of the Outbreak and 4 Possible Scenarios

#45

> In the optimistic scenario, a month from now we can calculate, from data outside mainland china, that the CFR is perhaps .3% or below What so absurd is it will take the world a month to know how serious this virus is. By that point it's likely too late to do anything to stop it. It's beyond disgusting that China is putting the entire world's population at risk due to pride and ego. Essentially "we'd rather screw ov…

This is a country the forced doctors at gun point to perform live delivery abortions in order to enforce the one child rule. A good friend's sister was a Obgyn in China, and when women were discovered with their second pregnancy they would be brought in for abortions even if the baby was full term. Doctors would either comply or have guns drawn and be threatened, doctors who failed to comply would be taken away, neve…

This account seems exaggerated. Forced late-term abortions in China were certainly a real thing, and the value of the life of a stranger is on par with that of livestock. However, guns are rarely seen in everyday life in China. This is especially the case with policemen and low-level enforcers. The exception are soldiers on duty, and security for transporting currency. Guns are kept in armories, brought out by specially trained "armed police".

Re: Coronavirus – The Status of the Outbreak and 4 Possible Scenarios

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even with the existing restrictions the virus spreads. Spread leads to quarantine as we've seen in many chinese cases. I don't see why should we hope for the better with less restrictions. If we can identify which restrictions are helping, and which are not, then we can remove the ones that are not. The point of my comment above is that the restrictions come with their own costs, in some cases severe. > Not being a…

If you believe you have a better idea what the "right moves" are than experts who have spent their careers studying these events and preparing for them, then by all means step up. But you should expect to be asked for evidence for your claims. Panic is a significant cost on its own. I think this is unfair on two fronts. First, labeling it as “panic” is just dismissive. What constitutes panic vs. what is responding ra…

> First, labeling it as “panic” is just dismissive. What constitutes panic vs. what is responding rapidly and vigorously to a critical emergency is in the eye of the beholder.

It can be both. The actions of individual citizens in Singapore, HK and other countries with a small number of cases certainly seem to be panic: buying more instant noodles than they could eat in a year, buying every toilet paper roll available, buying so many face masks that rations are introduced, and so on. Some government actions also appear to be going beyond what is necessary to respond; for example banning travel from country A to country B, when country A has fewer cases than country B itself.

> Secondly, it’s possible to trust the experts and also think that the proper measures are not being taken. The experts are the epidemiologists, virologists, doctors, public health officials, etc. who are working on this outbreak, and they seem pretty damn concerned. I’ve read very few statements that suggest this is likely to blow over, and many more that show a widespread opinion among the experts that containment is unlikely and that this is very serious. But the experts don’t run the world, politicians and bureaucrats and business leaders do. And they have different interests and incentives. There are also likely discussions behind the scenes that we don’t know about. The WHO could be urging countries to shut down all air travel but leaders are reluctant to do so for fear of the political backlash.

The WHO, in fact, has mostly suggested a more measured approach to air travel restrictions than what many governments have decided to take. Most of the expert opinions I've read have presented a number of different paths this could take, and suggested a lot of uncertainty as to the likelihood of each. This is sensible. Meanwhile, most of the forum posts and comments that I've read have strongly emphasised the worst possible cases, and continued to do so as the worst path that previously could have happened (which they were implying was a virtual certainty), didn't.

> All you have to do is look at how China treated the doctors who reported on this back in December to see how “trust the people in charge” is not the same as “trust the experts”.

I'd be the last person to suggest trusting China's leadership, but neither am I inclined to assume that the measures taken by other governments in response to this are entirely based on expert advice or even entirely for health-related reasons.

> If China had clamped down on this six weeks earlier than they did, we wouldn’t be in this mess.

Maybe.

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