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A popular self-driving car dataset is missing labels for hundreds of pedestrians

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Re: A popular self-driving car dataset is missing labels for hundreds of pedestrians

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The simple idea is to do stuff like train your model on randomized subsets of your data and then compare its performance to using all the data you have. This doesn't overcome a true "black swan", but that's not what NN are meant to be doing anyhow.

"The simple idea is to do stuff like train your model on randomized subsets of your data and then compare its performance to using all the data you have." How do you do this when you cannot verify that your data, in subset or in whole, is accurate? And furthermore you don't know how inaccurate it is?

My intuitive take on it:

You train on a subset of the initial data. Even if the data has a certain number of incorrect frames, it should still do a decent job getting a lot of things right.

Then you manually loop through all the images of the data set for which the network has detected something that isn't present in the annotations (and vice versa). If the network correctly identified a missing item that wasn't in the original set, all you need to do is press "correct" (and, again, vice versa). You now have an improved data set.

Retrain, rinse, repeat.

Eventually, you'll converge to a case where you have consistency between training and annotations. And then, you manually go through all images again to weed out the final mistakes.

The benefit of this method is that it's much faster to click "correct" that it is to draw rectangles on the screen to label something.

Re: A popular self-driving car dataset is missing labels for hundreds of pedestrians

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is really scary. No, it's not even remotely "really scary". No one is putting an actual self-driving car on the market using this specific data set. Disingenuous to pretend this is any indication of the data using by serious companies in the space or is represented of the impact a few mislabelled samples have on the ability of these systems & algorithms to generalize.

> No one is putting an actual self-driving car on the market using this specific data set. Disingenuous to pretend this is any indication of the data using by serious companies in the space Are you sure about that? What about "non-serious" companies? Various fly-by-night self-driving startups? I mean, this sounds like the machine learning equivalent of "no serious business is pulling random bits of code from StackOve…

Are you sure about that? What about "non-serious" companies? Various fly-by-night self-driving startups?

Fly-by-night self-driving startups will at some point run into issues with the NHTSA. George Hotz self-driving car project was shut down as soon as he announced that he'd start selling some prototype.

States require permits just to be allowed to test self-driving prototypes on the open road. I don't know what the requirements are, but they're probably subject to some kind of review that's more than just filling in a form.

Re: A popular self-driving car dataset is missing labels for hundreds of pedestrians

#103
post #23
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what framerate? With 30 fps, a 60mph vehicle advances about 5 feet per frame. Every incorrectly labeled frame delays the reaction by a nontrivial amount. My intuition is that your trained accuracy will not exceed the accuracy of the training set. This is literally a matter of life and death; every frame matters.

Tesla claims using 110 fps in their older and 2,300 fps in their newer cars. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Autopilot#Hardware_3 )

Following the wikipedia source:

> CEO Elon Musk says that it is capable of processing 200 frames per second and Tesla’s hardware 3 computer, which is optimized to run a neural net, will be able to handle 2,000 frames per second with redundancy.

No way they're shooting 2,000fps, let alone making that many adjustments per second. Maybe that's just a radar ping/signal frequency?

I like Elon, but why does he keep saying things like this?

Re: A popular self-driving car dataset is missing labels for hundreds of pedestrians

#104
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The simple idea is to do stuff like train your model on randomized subsets of your data and then compare its performance to using all the data you have." How do you do this when you cannot verify that your data, in subset or in whole, is accurate? And furthermore you don't know how inaccurate it is?

My intuitive take on it: You train on a subset of the initial data. Even if the data has a certain number of incorrect frames, it should still do a decent job getting a lot of things right. Then you manually loop through all the images of the data set for which the network has detected something that isn't present in the annotations (and vice versa). If the network correctly identified a missing item that wasn't in t…

The drawback of this method is that it's easy to miss a pedestrian amidst the sea of rectangles already drawn.

You would be far better off paying people $x/hour to look at an image for 30 seconds and answer the question "Does this image have any people in it?" Y/N and watching for the human who says "Yes" when the AI says "No".

Their accuracy rating will help distinguish who is best able to detect pedestrians that AI and other people missed (and who is just random-clicking Y/N for pay), and their group effort will ensure that someone eventually sees the pedestrian, even if no one else has.

Asking them to draw boxes distracts them from their job, which is "verify that we are able to detect human beings with perfect accuracy vs. a hundred people trying to detect human beings".

(At worst, ask them to click on the person. No need for a box. Either it's a person or it isn't. If it is, and your AI missed it, then what they think is the right kind of box to draw is the least of your concerns.)

Re: A popular self-driving car dataset is missing labels for hundreds of pedestrians

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Likewise, I have yet to see one of these things that can recognize potholes and swerve to avoid them lest a wheel be ripped off. Sooner or later it'd be nice to be able to drive one of these things in a place that isn't southern California.

That's a feature, not a bug. Swerving for potholes can be very dangerous, more dangerous than having undercarriage damage. If a pothole surprises you enough that you have to swerve you were either not paying attention to the road or you are following too close.

Regardless of what's the appropriate action to take given the context (ignoring, swerving, slowing down, a timely proper change of lane) it's probably not controversial that potholes should be identified by a car vision system and taken into account. And from a computer vision perspective there's no qualitative difference between "just" a deep pothole and a lane-wide ten foot deep sinkhole or a construction pit that's unmarked for some reason, it's just a matter of size.

Re: A popular self-driving car dataset is missing labels for hundreds of pedestrians

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Medical professionals have been aware of this dilemma for millennia: many people die from an ailment if no treatment is attempted, but bad approaches to treatment can kill people that would have survived otherwise. And setting 'better average accident rates' as the threshold for self driving vehicle software developers to be immune from the consequence of their errors is like setting 'better than witch doctors'…

What if its very much better average accident rates? This isn't black-and-white.

No, it certainly isn't black and white. Indeed 'much better' is hard to even define when human drivers cover an enormous amount of miles per accident, miles driven are heterogenous in terms of risk, there isn't even necessarily a universally accepted classification of accident severity or whether drivers should be excluded from the sample as being 'at fault' to an unacceptable degree. Plus the AV software isn't staying the same forever: every release introduces new potential edge case bugs, and any new edge case bug which produces a fatality every hundred million miles makes that software release more lethal than human drivers, even if it's better at not denting cars whilst parking and always observes speed limits in between. I don't think every new release is getting a enough billion miles of driving with safety drivers to reassure there's no statistically significant risk of new edge case bugs though.

And in context, we still punish surgeons for causing fatalities through gross negligence even though overall they are many orders of magnitude better at performing surgery than the average human.

Re: A popular self-driving car dataset is missing labels for hundreds of pedestrians

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's scary when you consider two other factors: First, the AI hype train. People think that calling something "Artificial Intelligence" implies that it is artificial, yes, but also, critically, that it is intelligent. Many enthusiastic people, and also many policymakers, don't fully realize the extent to which machine learning is constrained by both the quality and nature of its training data, and the capabilities of…

> People think that calling something "Artificial Intelligence" implies that it is artificial, yes, but also, critically that it is intelligent. I mean, the exact same argument could be made about people. Just because you belong to Homo Sapiens doesn't imply you're an intelligent being at all times - e.g. drink a bottle of vodka and the sapiens part is gone.

It’s because we are intelligent that we want the bottle of vodka in the first place.

Re: A popular self-driving car dataset is missing labels for hundreds of pedestrians

#108
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My intuitive take on it: You train on a subset of the initial data. Even if the data has a certain number of incorrect frames, it should still do a decent job getting a lot of things right. Then you manually loop through all the images of the data set for which the network has detected something that isn't present in the annotations (and vice versa). If the network correctly identified a missing item that wasn't in t…

The drawback of this method is that it's easy to miss a pedestrian amidst the sea of rectangles already drawn. You would be far better off paying people $x/hour to look at an image for 30 seconds and answer the question "Does this image have any people in it?" Y/N and watching for the human who says "Yes" when the AI says "No". Their accuracy rating will help distinguish who is best able to detect pedestrians that AI…

Why pay people to do this when you can make a CAPTCHA that requires them to do it for free?

Google must have a really good data set from all those "click the boxes containing X" tests they make people do.

Re: A popular self-driving car dataset is missing labels for hundreds of pedestrians

#110
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My intuitive take on it: You train on a subset of the initial data. Even if the data has a certain number of incorrect frames, it should still do a decent job getting a lot of things right. Then you manually loop through all the images of the data set for which the network has detected something that isn't present in the annotations (and vice versa). If the network correctly identified a missing item that wasn't in t…

The drawback of this method is that it's easy to miss a pedestrian amidst the sea of rectangles already drawn. You would be far better off paying people $x/hour to look at an image for 30 seconds and answer the question "Does this image have any people in it?" Y/N and watching for the human who says "Yes" when the AI says "No". Their accuracy rating will help distinguish who is best able to detect pedestrians that AI…

Both methods aren't mutually exclusive.
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