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Why poor people make poor decisions

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Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#71

Post by miguelmota »

vearwhershuh wrote: post #17

People don't need cash. That's the easy way out for intellectuals. And they sure as shit don't need a casino in their town. They need social infrastructure (families, extended families, social institutions like churches and service organizations), cultural infrastructure, and economic opportunity within this stable social structure. All of which the intellectual class has been helping the financial elites destroy for…

I think churches fuel poverty more than they help. Religion teaches people that they are the way they are because that's how 'God' intended them to be and that they'll be rewarded with riches when they go to 'heaven'.

Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#72

Post by danans »

umvi wrote: post #11

> Poverty is not a lack of character – it’s a lack of cash. No. Poverty is a lack of education and, more importantly, mentorship. I am battling this right now with my next door neighbors, who use HOC, a Maryland social service that basically puts poor people in middle class neighborhoods by subsidizing rent. My neighbors have money. They spend it extremely poorly. It's a single mom with 2 kids. Both kids have iPhones…

> My neighbors have money. They spend it extremely poorly. It's a single mom with 2 kids. Both kids have iPhones, iPads, PS4s, cable TV, you name it.

iPhones and video games are very cheap compared to good schools and safe and mentally stimulating childcare.

A poor person's children having an iPhone and PlayStation is no more an indication of their having money than my kids not having those things is an indication that I'm poor.

If anything the correlation is slightly on the opposite direction: I can afford better (expensive) activities for my kids (i.e. horseback riding camp, after school enrichment classes), which cost me tens of thousands per year.

Poor people routinely occupy their children with an iPhone with Candy Crush, which is cheap by comparison. Those things create the temporary illusion of prosperity, both for those in poverty, and for observers like you.

> Just recently he boasted that his mom is going to buy him a brand new $1500 gaming rig. I remarked that seemed quite expensive and wondered where the money would come from. "tax return" he replied non-chalantly. He also said once they got their tax return they would be going to Disneyland.

You shouldn't necessarily believe everything that a child in need says about what their family is purchasing. People (children and adults) do a lot of wishful thinking out loud. Some of it is to assuage themselves, and to feel normalized among their more privileged peers.

> These kids need mentors more than they need cash.

Families need cash to reduce financial stress levels. Being a single mother on govt benefits isn't the cakewalk you make it out to be. And absolutely, kids need mentors, but good mentors also don't come cheap, and they usually aren't willing to work with kids who has behavioral issues originating in financial stress and cheap entertainment distractions.

Volunteer mentors want to work with the "diamonds in the rough" kids, because the reward for mentorship is feeling like a super hero who "made a difference in one child's life".

That approach doesn't scale. The mentorship program that scales is the one right on front of us: financially stable parents and community, who have an inherent interest in the child's development.

Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#74

Post by organsnyder »

miguelmota wrote: post #71
vearwhershuh wrote: post #17

People don't need cash. That's the easy way out for intellectuals. And they sure as shit don't need a casino in their town. They need social infrastructure (families, extended families, social institutions like churches and service organizations), cultural infrastructure, and economic opportunity within this stable social structure. All of which the intellectual class has been helping the financial elites destroy for…

I think churches fuel poverty more than they help. Religion teaches people that they are the way they are because that's how 'God' intended them to be and that they'll be rewarded with riches when they go to 'heaven'.

You're describing prosperity gospel theology, which is certainly popular (see Joel Osteen and the like) but is considered heretical by mainline traditions.

Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#75

Post by emblaegh »

miguelmota wrote: post #71
vearwhershuh wrote: post #17

People don't need cash. That's the easy way out for intellectuals. And they sure as shit don't need a casino in their town. They need social infrastructure (families, extended families, social institutions like churches and service organizations), cultural infrastructure, and economic opportunity within this stable social structure. All of which the intellectual class has been helping the financial elites destroy for…

I think churches fuel poverty more than they help. Religion teaches people that they are the way they are because that's how 'God' intended them to be and that they'll be rewarded with riches when they go to 'heaven'.

Even as an atheist myself, I can tell how ridiculously uninformed this view of Christianity (and probably most other religions) is.

Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#76

Post by emblaegh »

organsnyder wrote: post #74
miguelmota wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think churches fuel poverty more than they help. Religion teaches people that they are the way they are because that's how 'God' intended them to be and that they'll be rewarded with riches when they go to 'heaven'.

You're describing prosperity gospel theology, which is certainly popular (see Joel Osteen and the like) but is considered heretical by mainline traditions.

What he is describing is the opposite of prosperity theology.

Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#77

Post by bluGill »

danans wrote: post #72
umvi wrote: post #11

> Poverty is not a lack of character – it’s a lack of cash. No. Poverty is a lack of education and, more importantly, mentorship. I am battling this right now with my next door neighbors, who use HOC, a Maryland social service that basically puts poor people in middle class neighborhoods by subsidizing rent. My neighbors have money. They spend it extremely poorly. It's a single mom with 2 kids. Both kids have iPhones…

> My neighbors have money. They spend it extremely poorly. It's a single mom with 2 kids. Both kids have iPhones, iPads, PS4s, cable TV, you name it. iPhones and video games are very cheap compared to good schools and safe and mentally stimulating childcare. A poor person's children having an iPhone and PlayStation is no more an indication of their having money than my kids not having those things is an indication th…

Those things are cheap only if the kids have enough food to eat. I buy a few nice things, but I don't have that much even though it is safe to assume I have 4 times the income (including welfare). My family eats good food, and my kid does well in school.

I'm not against the poor having nice toys, but the priority is not toys. Yet I see the poor spending a lot of toys that are often discarded in a short time.

Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#78

Post by bluGill »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #51
whack wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article has referenced very robust empirical evidence demonstrating that cash infusions can significantly increase IQ, lower mental health problems, and lower rates of crime. Your kid-next-door story is great, but doesn't refute any of the above. There are many ways of tackling poverty. Education and mentorship are certainly very valid ways. And so too is expanding the social safety net. I don't know about you, b…

And the study you posted doesn't refute his anecdote. If we always listened to depersonalized studies rather than using the context of a situation, than we will make extremely poor choices of how to handle bad situations like this The OP gives strong analysis for why giving this family money directly doesn't solve any other structural problems

Indeed the OP and the article on not in conflict. For families that are functional but poor money can help, and a broad study will show this even if some students are not helped because of the other factors. We need more detail.

Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#79

Post by Kaze404 »

emblaegh wrote: post #75
miguelmota wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think churches fuel poverty more than they help. Religion teaches people that they are the way they are because that's how 'God' intended them to be and that they'll be rewarded with riches when they go to 'heaven'.

Even as an atheist myself, I can tell how ridiculously uninformed this view of Christianity (and probably most other religions) is.

Can you expand? I'm an atheist as well and that aligns pretty well with what I remember from when my parents would take me to the church as a teenager. For context, they're catholics.

Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#80

Post by rurp »

This reminds me of a great Matt Levine article from last year where he discusses his rules for personal finance and mocks the usual cliche advice.

""" The important rules of personal finance are:

    1. Make a lot of money. (This one is key!)
    2. Spend less than you make.
    3. Don’t invest in scams.
Meanwhile most actually available personal finance advice seems to come down to these considerably less helpful teachings 2 :

    1. Don’t spend any money on coffee, food, cars or other nice things.
    2. Compound interest!
""" https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-29/elon-m...
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