Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#451

Post by IggleSniggle » Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

Psyladine wrote: post #163

IggleSniggle wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying "again" has zero bearing on frequency, unless you mean to suggest that every single action that MS and it's individual employees take are "shady stuff," continuously, without exception.

>every single action It doesn't have to suggest all actions, only re-occurring behavior. Microsoft had a well deserved reputation as a grim reaper in the tech industry. http://www.ecis.eu/documents/Finalversion_Consumerchoicepape...

I agree! The person I was responding to reacted to "again" as if a behavior needs to "stop" in order for it to happen "again." It doesn't. It only needs to be reoccurring.

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#452

Post by proactivesvcs » Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 9:29 PM UTC

immigrantsheep wrote: post #395

black_puppydog wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is Microsoft using their desktop operating system market share to drive their web browser market share. That's pretty much what they got sued for before. Given, their market position in desktop might be a different one now than back then. But it's still quite close to what antitrust laws were written against. Also saying "oh all corps do stuff like that calm down" is a really bad defense IMO.

Don't most linux distros come with Firefox preinstalled? How is that not pushing the other way? OSX comes with Safari. Every time you visit youtube with another browser it nudges you to install Chrome. Why is Microsoft singled out here?

Linux distros preinstall Firefox just like Windows preinstalls Edge. A fact that I've never had a problem with, from an ethical or user-friendliness aspect.

For your comparison to be valid, a Linux distro would have to be showing antagonistic adverts when its mandatory telemetry gathering detects that you are not using Firefox, and doing so to increase their market share. They do not and distros are not Mozilla, so the comparison falls flat.

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#453

Post by Sohcahtoa82 » Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #295

wgerard wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just don't understand why people run windows. There are many, many products that either run significantly better on windows (Office) or are completely unavailable on other OSs (many video games). That's changing, for sure. But there's still a long tail of products that semi-necessitate windows.

or are completely unavailable on other OSs (many video games) I get a chuckle whenever I realize how things have changed. In the early to mid-80's, there was a popular mantra that the IBM PC ecosystem was for "serous work," and anything else was "just for games," which was a slap at Apple (then dominant for business, but rapidly slipping) and the other alternatives. Today, it seems that for the majority of ordinary p…

> the only reason they stay in the Wintel ecosystem is for games.

Is it still "Wintel" when a lot of gamers are going AMD now?

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#454

Post by proactivesvcs » Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

Shendare wrote: post #378

fsh wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how showing "Still using Firefox?" can be seen as anything but a targeted anti-Firefox ad. The title is completely accurate.

"Targeted" for me would imply that Windows is checking first to see whether Firefox is installed, and only showing the suggestion if so. If this is just a general suggestion that gets pushed out to all Windows computers, then it's not so much targeted as merely questionable use of platform.

I would be very surprised if it was just pushed out irrespective of telemetry. Since Windows 10 is a mass-market operating system, I'd be surprised if 1% of their users had ever heard of Firefox.

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#455

Post by owl57 » Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 9:39 PM UTC

ubercow13 wrote: post #420

owl57 wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GNOME isn't fine. See, on switching keyboard layout it switches focus from current window while it writes some file to disk. Yes, it's not terrible on SSD, and I bet whoever invented this monstrosity has an SSD. But needing an SSD not to lose some of the letters you type just screams of insanity. OTOH, yes, the rest of Ubuntu is fine, and to anyone fed up with Windows I gladly recommend anything else based on Ubuntu…

Huh? So? Surprisingly, Ubuntu MATE has bugs too, you can look here too see some of them: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mate

1) This bug is a major one for a big part of the world.

2) It belongs to the part of GNOME that exists solely because GNOME decided to reinvent keyboard input.

3) Google shows lots of people aware of the problem (bugreports, stackexchange, whatever) — of course it does, see (1) — but not only no solution, but also I couldn't find any workaround short of using another DE, although — see (2) — disabling the feature altogether would be a decent workaround.

Of course all programs have bugs. Do other free programs tend to have bugs of this lasting quality?

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#456

Post by Justsignedup » Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 9:45 PM UTC

alxlaz wrote: post #78

iso1631 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over the last couple of years I've been coming round to the fact that microsoft aren't necessarily a major problem now, compared to google and amazon at least. Doesn't take much to put the shields back upto full. I just don't understand why people run windows. Maybe I just use computers wrong, having been on linux for the last 20 years, but my family (who I refuse to help with IT needs) are all far happier on chromeb…

> I just don't understand why people run windows. I've used Linux for about the same time and honestly, I understand it completely. I would switch, were it not for muscle memory and for the fact that at least 50% of my work involves systems-level development for Linux (mainly embedded stuff, so a lot of cross-compiling). In the last five or six years I've come to dread the Linux desktop and its constant churn of rewr…

And the occasional "we changed all network settings and turned off all network devices" system update. And then of course "if you need help go to www..."

Linux desktop is a horrible UX. But is also an amazing server environment.

Also windows can run on partially broken hardware and still not crash. Which is incredibly impressive.

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#457

Post by overgard » Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 9:48 PM UTC

ubercow13 wrote: post #404

overgard wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I'll definitely keep an eye on that piece of hardware. I do intend that the next system I buy can run Linux well. I mean I'm going to stick with it, even if it is bad. That said.. even though I'm pointing out hardware issues I don't think the free software world should get a pass on these things. I get that a lack of corporate sponsorship can make things hard, BUT, a lot of the issues I'm running into are thing…

>there's obviously something not quite working with this model when it comes to producing software people can use It might be that the model is never going to provide the financial incentives to work perfectly on every random Windows laptop, which is what you seem to mean by 'producing software people can use'. Meanwhile, plenty of people use it just fine - your laptop not working hardly invalidates the whole desktop…

You're missing my point, which is that the problems extend past hardware support. Also it's hardware that frankly should work. MSI GS65. There's nothing weird hardware wise with this laptop.

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#458

Post by Justsignedup » Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #392

alxlaz wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just don't understand why people run windows. I've used Linux for about the same time and honestly, I understand it completely. I would switch, were it not for muscle memory and for the fact that at least 50% of my work involves systems-level development for Linux (mainly embedded stuff, so a lot of cross-compiling). In the last five or six years I've come to dread the Linux desktop and its constant churn of rewr…

I absolutely get the distaste for gratuitous UX changes. I've been using Xfce since 2004 and it hasn't changed all that much since then. Overall I'd never claim that a Linux desktop is a "Just Works" proposition, but judging from the issues my colleagues have with macOS, I wouldn't trade my Linux problems for their macOS problems. I can't speak much to Windows anymore, but I can't imagine it'd be all that much better…

OSX problems range from:

- oh look, apple decided to change their security model. Now old apps don't work. (necessary to prevent malware).

- oh look, no more 32bit programs.

- oh look, you plugged in a monitor CRASH.

- oh look, you plugged in a charger... CRASH.

- oh look, a touchbar.

- let's all pay a $1000 premium for hardware.

On OSX backwards compatibility isn't a concern apparently.

Windows problems range from:

- Who installed this thing? And to where? WTF is it?

- Why is there 2+ interfaces for all system configurations. 1 of which is pretty but incomplete, and the other hidden and terrible but complete?

- Why does it insist on using edge and bing for fucking everything?

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#459

Post by overgard » Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 9:51 PM UTC

slgeorge wrote: post #381

overgard wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I'll definitely keep an eye on that piece of hardware. I do intend that the next system I buy can run Linux well. I mean I'm going to stick with it, even if it is bad. That said.. even though I'm pointing out hardware issues I don't think the free software world should get a pass on these things. I get that a lack of corporate sponsorship can make things hard, BUT, a lot of the issues I'm running into are thing…

It's not "open source" that's in question here, it is "work done for free without commercially paid developers". A bunch of work happens for things like wifi and cpu because of Android and ChromeOS. But, the number of professional paid developers doing "desktop Linux" drivers is probably fewer than 10 right now [0]. The number of full-time paid developers on "desktop Linux" itself is probably under 100? ... probably…

So honestly, if the answer is "buy special hardware to use this thing"... I'm probably not going to use the thing.

I support desktop linux up to the point where I'm willing to use it, and contribute if I am using, but, I'm not replacing everything I own for an experience that's already proven to be bad. I'm not really convinced the problem is hardware, I think there are cultural/organization/design problems here. It shouldn't be hard to have multi-monitor support for a login screen 15 years after it's been a common setup. I shouldn't be battling with ACPI issues when ACPI is a standard that's been around since like 1996. I'm willing to be forgiving about things like graphics drivers or other things that are on the cutting edge with manufacturers that are mostly indifferent, but we're talking basic functionality. Even though I'm sympathetic to the manpower issues it doesn't change the fact that it's not really usable and telling people to buy new computers isn't a good solution.

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#460

Post by zeusk » Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 9:56 PM UTC

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #424

krzyk wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple doesn't play well with enterprises Well, it plays too well actually. At my current job and at previous one we had a choice Mac or a Windows laptop. Mac ones were alway much more rigid with restrictions, less hackable (e.g. Installing Linux side by side was impossible on Mac, because it broke macos somehow as a result of enterprise drive encryption).

Well, I just had to take my laptop in to work to get the firmware updated because BitLocker hiccuped, and locked me out of the machine. I'm doubting that you're going to be any safer on Windows in this regard, unless Corporate IT is NOT turning on drive encryption for Windows. (And even I would probably advocate for this particular policy.)

It wasn't a firmware update, if bitlocker detects hardware or disk config changes - it needs to be unlocked from the enterprise side. Most deployments have a self service portal so you don't have to bother IT for it.

As for installing Linux, that should be fine as long as you're not pulling company data on that - and it should be gated with whatever endpoint protection there is for Linux.