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Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

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Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#361

Has anyone here actually looked at the "anti-Firefox" ad in question? It's literally a tile that says "Still using Firefox? Edge is here!". I'm not really sure what we expected here. This is about the same as a browser asking you to make it default when you open it. All big companies do weird anti competitive things. This isn't one of those things. I know I'll likely get downvoted for this opinion, but to many commen…

So I guess you were talking about my post? Since I'm one of the "this is why I don't believe in the new Microsoft or that Microsoft has changed" people you mention :-).

First of all, this isn't just about this ad. As I said in my comment, it's "this -- and every other screw-up in the same vein". Like the other Start Menu ads, like the dark patterns in privacy-related config settings. But okay, let's talk about this one specifically.

The "old Microsoft" (specifically, to put it in context: the one with the Halloween Documents [0]) that I don't trust (I want to emphasize this part for reasons that I'll explain in a minute) is a company that:

1. Specifically used its dominating position in the operating systems industry to push its browser and eliminate competition in that space

2. Engaged in competition partly by spreading FUD about other products (note that this is not a post-hoc exaggeration: the internal memos specifically call FUD by this name, and refer to it as an entrenched, well-known internal technique)

3. Was deliberately dismissive of competing open source software in its public statements, even though it sometimes uses it internally

4. Set out a strategy to compete against open source (note though -- I think the documents predate the term "open source"?) that went beyond merely spreading FUD, and was based on embracing, then extending existing protocols in incompatible ways.

This "meh ad" is just the latest in Microsoft's constant, and extremely irritating push for Edge (e.g. see the system's behaviour when you try to change the default browser). It's the same stuff we've seen back in 1998 -- not as aggressive, seeing how Microsoft nearly got broken up when it tried something that aggressive, but it's in the same vein. And looks very much like #1 above.

It's also not happening just in the browser space. For instance, until recently, Windows wouldn't shut up about the damn OneDrive thing, either.

Things are different in the cloud and server space -- where SQL Server, Azure and .NET core happen -- because Microsoft isn't even close to being in a dominating position. Of course Microsoft can't elude competition there. They could ban Linux from Azure if they wanted to, but more than half of their marketshare would evaporate with it, too.

But I don't see any reason to think that this is part of some internal reform of some sort -- it's just the corner Microsoft painted themselves in. Of course they have to play the "Microsoft loves Linux" PR game, too: a whole generation of open source developers grew in a climate of mistrust about Microsoft, and it just so happens that the software written by this generation of open source developers powers much of the cloud space, of which Microsoft would reaaally want a slice. A long time ago, Microsoft also sold software for the Macintosh. Then it stopped. Then it started selling OS X software again. They aren't dumb, and they certainly don't lack good engineers -- Microsoft can compete on technical merit when it needs to.

Just like you, I don't generally care to support a large company, and while I do earn about half my yearly income writing or support Linux software, I don't really have a stake in it (honestly, I'd much rather write or support QNX software but that ship has sailed...). I'm not... OK, I'm no longer a Linux fanboy, which I definitely was twenty years ago but we all did a lot of stupid things when we were young. This isn't about "loving" or "hating" Microsoft, it's about whether or not I want to trust them with my stuff -- and stuff like this makes me not trust them :).

Edit: man, the last time I wrote so much about Microsoft I was fifteen, I think...

Even later edit: also -- as far as Windows 10 is concerned, save for the ads and data collection policy, I actually like it very much. I use it on one of my machines and I'm very happy with it -- so happy, in fact, that the moment this ads nonsense stops, I'll seriously think about switching to it :).

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documents

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#362

Has anyone here actually looked at the "anti-Firefox" ad in question? It's literally a tile that says "Still using Firefox? Edge is here!". I'm not really sure what we expected here. This is about the same as a browser asking you to make it default when you open it. All big companies do weird anti competitive things. This isn't one of those things. I know I'll likely get downvoted for this opinion, but to many commen…

I'm more bothered by it's placement being in my start menu, than I am by what it's for or against. The PLACEMENT is what's really crossing the line.

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#363
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just don't understand why people run windows I do. And just a disclaimer, I am using linux 100% on desktop (and prefer freebsd on servers). Where I run firefox, i3, terminal, evolution (as I am forced to use it due to Exchange support, while I actually prefer mutt) and this is it. I rarely run anything else that is windowed. The reason is simple. Linux desktop really sucks. Instead of whole community stepping tog…

As someone who uses one of the minority desktops within a minority distro (Fedora w/ Cinnamon spin), I agree that all of the trash-talking within a community is to the detriment to its spread. I almost wish we could get all Linux users to verbally agree to something like the following: "I will not trash popular Linux desktop environments to outsiders. Ubuntu is fine. GNOME is fine. I understand that for the sake of t…

GNOME isn't fine. See, on switching keyboard layout it switches focus from current window while it writes some file to disk. Yes, it's not terrible on SSD, and I bet whoever invented this monstrosity has an SSD. But needing an SSD not to lose some of the letters you type just screams of insanity.

OTOH, yes, the rest of Ubuntu is fine, and to anyone fed up with Windows I gladly recommend anything else based on Ubuntu LTS. [LKX]Ubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, Mint — they are all really fine.

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#364
post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are useless xterms different from uselessly used space for a simply centered window? I have 2x4K monitors at home. Moving to i3 is the best thing that happened to me.

> How are useless xterms different from uselessly used space for a simply centered window? You still have to open them and move them around, especially if you do change your layout eventually. I actually didn't have that problem when I was using ratpoison, but some applications (looking at you, Eclipse...) don't really work with it. (I know about stumpwm, and I do know Common Lisp, but alas, we just don't get along t…

notion is a bit like i3 but with fixed containers that don't disappear when they become empty: https://notionwm.net/

herbstluftwm also has containers something similar

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I switched over to running desktop linux a couple months ago because I was so fed up with these things, but the truth is... it's just pretty bad. Like if I let my laptop go to sleep my touchpad will never work again. I had to do a bunch of weird kernel hacks to keep my wifi working when the device goes to sleep, and even then it's a hack (I had to enable the airplane mode button, and then make sure to hit it twice an…

Yes, you MUST buy certified hardware [0], preferably with it pre-loaded with Linux [1]. Ultimately, Linux didn't make enough of a dent in the desktop hardware space in the 90's/00's. The level of interest from hardware vendors (ODM/OEM/component manufacturers) has gone down - that's why things are worse. If you don't use non-preloaded hardware you are NOT signalling to anyone that desktop Linux is important. This red…

> The level of interest from hardware vendors (ODM/OEM/component manufacturers) has gone down - that's why things are worse.

I'm sort of surprised the Linux community didn't put more effort into a compatibility layer so that Windows drivers could be used on Linux, or something to make it easy for vendors to quickly port their Windows drivers to Linux.

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#366

Has anyone here actually looked at the "anti-Firefox" ad in question? It's literally a tile that says "Still using Firefox? Edge is here!". I'm not really sure what we expected here. This is about the same as a browser asking you to make it default when you open it. All big companies do weird anti competitive things. This isn't one of those things. I know I'll likely get downvoted for this opinion, but to many commen…

> This is about the same as a browser asking you to make it default when you open it. No, it's one thing (OS) pushing another (browser). The equivalent would be opening chrome and it popping up a message, "Still using Windows? Click here to upgrade to ChromeOS!"

I think it's more like Google harassing you to install Chrome when using any Google property, or, even worse, getting it packaged into every installer under the sun, so if you forgot to uncheck the "install Google Chrome" box while installing a new version of Java, congratulations, you now have Google Chrome.

I'm not defending this behavior, but unfortunately the norm has been set.

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#367
Just for kicks, I tried using internet explorer for a few weeks a while back. It seemed like every Google property was constantly prompting me to switch to Chrome. I mention this not to defend Microsoft, whose behavior here it intolerable, but to point out that this kind of thing is unfortunately common.

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is about the same as a browser asking you to make it default when you open it. No, it's one thing (OS) pushing another (browser). The equivalent would be opening chrome and it popping up a message, "Still using Windows? Click here to upgrade to ChromeOS!"

I think it's more like Google harassing you to install Chrome when using any Google property, or, even worse, getting it packaged into every installer under the sun, so if you forgot to uncheck the "install Google Chrome" box while installing a new version of Java, congratulations, you now have Google Chrome. I'm not defending this behavior, but unfortunately the norm has been set.

Yes, I agree that it is exactly like that: completely unacceptable, and it should be grounds for antitrust action.

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#369
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, Microsoft did add tracking prevention tools much like Firefox and Safari have. So they did add the common browser feature Google refuses to integrate. Privacy-minded people who insist on using Chrome should switch to Edge over Chrome. But I refuse to contribute to the Chromium monoculture.

No they shouldn't. They should switch to Firefox or Safari. Or at the very least Chromium (from a Linux package manager).

Or Brave. Basically Chrome without the spyware.

Re: Microsoft begins showing an anti-Firefox ad in the Windows 10 start menu

#370

Has anyone here actually looked at the "anti-Firefox" ad in question? It's literally a tile that says "Still using Firefox? Edge is here!". I'm not really sure what we expected here. This is about the same as a browser asking you to make it default when you open it. All big companies do weird anti competitive things. This isn't one of those things. I know I'll likely get downvoted for this opinion, but to many commen…

Because of what I do, I am on a lot of Windows 10 machines for the first time. I use chocolaty to push out all the apps needed for systems at work, or my VMs at home.

When you switch browsers for the first time, Win10 will ask like a whiny little bitch, "Are you sure you want to not use Edge? It's really nice."

An anti-Firefox ad on Win10 would not surprise me.

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