The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church • Hacker News Board

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#521

Post by tomrod » Sun, Feb 09, 2020, 11:54 PM UTC

lcall wrote: post #506

tomrod wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few commentaries and examples. Remember these are not local congregations pushing this, but the central corporation. The item isn't "all Mormons do this" but rather there is a culture that encourages these divisions. Racism - https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/09/mormons... - https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/05/fake-apology-for-mo... - https://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/06/09/39-years-later-priest…

Maybe it depends on beliefs and definitions. But here is much that we are taught, centrally. We certainly hear a lot about being kind to others, and also that we are not authorized to change God's commandments with respect to the nature and purpose of individual and family, now and in eternity. I believe one can search by topics, etc: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/general-conference?lang=... and about: families…

But even these topics have a hard time introspecting the racist norms integrated. Consider: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2020/01/18/error-printed-lds...

I have genuine hope for Mormons, that they can repatriate for their historical blunders and be the great, solid people they aspire to be. They really do tend to be great people, just a little to at-the-ready to do what their hierarchical leadership deigns -- and to me that sacrifice of moral compass was my fundamental wedge issue. Self-introspection is a difficult principle to learn regardless of one's background.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#522

Post by wl » Sun, Feb 09, 2020, 11:55 PM UTC

lcall wrote: post #505

wl wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's beyond dispute that Mormonism is derived from Christianity and considers itself to be the restored, correct form of it. Still, I think you'd find very few theologians who would consider them to be Christian. Their beliefs are largely based on the Christian scriptures but significantly depart from the traditional form of Christianity outlined in the early creeds. And that's the point of restorationism: Everyone e…

I think the key difference is that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't adopt the creeds (like Nicene ... in wikipedia) of the early centuries after Christ. We definitely do believe in the divinity and essential role of Jesus Christ as taught in the New Testament. For actual teachings, the Book of Mormon (with the Bible) is all about Christ. I believe one can search by topics, at, for example, http…

> We definitely do believe in the divinity and essential role of Jesus Christ as taught in the New Testament.

Most Christians would disagree with the notion that Elohim and Jesus/Jehovah are two distinct beings and that this unity is found (albeit, not explicitly) in the NT. Furthermore, Jesus' role in the the Mormon Plan of Salvation is a significant departure from the soteriology people usually derive from the NT. I understand one can argue otherwise and people do (e.g. Swedenborg's soteriology), but it's an extreme minority position even among the schismatic mess that is Christianity. You can argue that the Mormon movement got these right where everyone else got it wrong because Joseph Smith and subsequent prophets were given revelation to correct the errors. Accept the truth of that or not, it's more evidence that the Mormons are something significantly different from what we'd normally call Christianity. From that perspective, perhaps the Mormon movement is the true Christianity and the rest are something else. But there is a huge difference no matter what side you take.

> For actual teachings, the Book of Mormon (with the Bible) is all about Christ.

But is it the same Christ? The Mandaeans have scripture that teaches about Christ. But in these scriptures, he's evil. Islam's Quran also talks a lot about Christ. But he mostly exists to disavow doctrines about him that Islam considers heretical. And even confining ourselves to the canonical gospels, the Christ of John and the Christ of Mark are noticeably different. You can certainly argue that if the Book of Mormon is "the most correct of any book on earth" and it reveals aspects of Christ omitted from or distorted in the traditional Christian scriptures. So it's the same Christ, represented more accurately. But if you reject the Book of Mormon as inspired, it's easy to see the Mormon Christ as something else with significant differences.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#523

Post by lcall » Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 1:18 AM UTC

tomrod wrote: post #521

lcall wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it depends on beliefs and definitions. But here is much that we are taught, centrally. We certainly hear a lot about being kind to others, and also that we are not authorized to change God's commandments with respect to the nature and purpose of individual and family, now and in eternity. I believe one can search by topics, etc: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/general-conference?lang=... and about: families…

But even these topics have a hard time introspecting the racist norms integrated. Consider: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2020/01/18/error-printed-lds... I have genuine hope for Mormons, that they can repatriate for their historical blunders and be the great, solid people they aspire to be. They really do tend to be great people, just a little to at-the-ready to do what their hierarchical leadership deigns -- and t…

Thanks for your comments. Humans are imperfect, a work in progress. I'm not perfect, I will keep trying. God is perfect. I have learned He lives. I'm glad He is patient, while knowing everything.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#524

Post by dmix » Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 3:46 AM UTC

fjp wrote: post #510

dragonwriter wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Jesus stuff might be more on the liberal end but Christianity in general is very much socially conservative. “Christianity” is about Christ, not something else. > Especially the old testament. The old testament is context for the NT, but with a very small number of exceptions (and with the exceptions of potential general applicability to Jewish Christians, which were common in the first Christian communities bu…

Yes this is exactly it. And just like the circumstances we are discussing now, Jesus found himself and his following in conflict with existing leaders who had amassed wealth and power, and who tried to delegitimize him by saying that his teachings (of charity and anti-wealth gathering) were just an assault on the legitimate god-given power of the existing church. Jesus was a radical hippie immigrant refugee, and his…

That's an even worse modern day caricature than what the other guy was pushing. The immigrant thing especially considering he was born in Canaan/Israel within walking distance from Jerusalem.

I highly recommend reading: "Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth" https://www.amazon.com/Zealot-Life-Times-Jesus-Nazareth/dp/B...

He was far from a hippie immigrant. He fit a pattern of many men before him claiming similar sanctity and happened to be at the right time and right place in a warn torn Israel for it to really find an audience.

But I wasn't even talking about the man himself from a historical perspective, just the general religious and historical environment from which his legend grew. The man-of-the-poor and anti-wealthy narrative was very much a later development in the history of christianity and was always floating on the sidelines of their work, especially in terms of how it was adopted, not merely what was written in the decades and centuries after he died in the bible.

Like all religious works there are plenty of room for interpretation and holy but great wealthy leaders are plentiful in the history of christianity. It's hardly a new thing. It's even more established in the Koran through the various prophets and leaders in their canon, all of whom held great power and leadership in their local areas.

Even today the works of Mother Theresa are very controversial. Especially in terms of their long term ROI (ie, helping the poor stay poor by accepting their place and not developing the skills or industry to escape such die situations, which to me is not something to be revered).

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#525

Post by thatguy0900 » Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 4:16 AM UTC

dmix wrote: post #524

fjp wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this is exactly it. And just like the circumstances we are discussing now, Jesus found himself and his following in conflict with existing leaders who had amassed wealth and power, and who tried to delegitimize him by saying that his teachings (of charity and anti-wealth gathering) were just an assault on the legitimate god-given power of the existing church. Jesus was a radical hippie immigrant refugee, and his…

That's an even worse modern day caricature than what the other guy was pushing. The immigrant thing especially considering he was born in Canaan/Israel within walking distance from Jerusalem. I highly recommend reading: "Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth" https://www.amazon.com/Zealot-Life-Times-Jesus-Nazareth/dp/B... He was far from a hippie immigrant. He fit a pattern of many men before him claiming s…

How can it be a later development by other people when Jesus supposedly directly said it? https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-19-23/ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#526

Post by goto11 » Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 11:13 AM UTC

jki275 wrote: post #518

goto11 wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The passage outright states that Jesus was the Messiah, which means it is obviously a forgery - Josephus wouldn't have written that since he wasn't a Christian. But the question is how much of the passage that have been altered.

The discussion has generally been that some people think that statement was added. There’s quite a bit more to it though, and that’s certainly not the only possible - or even obvious - conclusion.

What do you find the obvious conclusion?

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#527

Post by thefringthing » Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 2:23 PM UTC

tomrod wrote: post #9

That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the fina…

> As doctrine they take the second coming of Christ seriously and believe they will transform into the world wide government on his return.

I think this was the role of the Council of Fifty, which as been defunct for a long time. The last known member, President of the Church Heber J. Grant, died in 1945.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#528

Post by 1lLAIW » Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 2:52 PM UTC

sturgill wrote: post #107

Can you imagine the criticism if the investment arm was losing money? The Church does amazing work providing resources during crises. I’ve personally cut trees off of people’s houses with chainsaws provided by the Church and given buckets of sanitation supplies when hurricanes swept through Florida. There is always a tension in “what do you spend now and what do you invest for later” but I honesty feel like the Churc…

The whole thread has been rearranged according to doctrine.

When the thread was active, a critical comment was on top the entire time. No one can tell me this is happening without a coordinated effort.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#529

Post by 1lLAIW » Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 2:54 PM UTC

x1oqw wrote: post #19

tomrod wrote: post #9

That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the fina…

It always surprises me that wealthy churches pretend to take Christ seriously, when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money. I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ), but why do the exploited masses believe them?

This comment also has been flagged recently. It has never been flagged during the active period.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#530

Post by 1lLAIW » Mon, Feb 10, 2020, 2:55 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #388

x1oqw wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always surprises me that wealthy churches pretend to take Christ seriously, when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money. I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ), but why do the exploited masses believe them?

Different Christian denominations have different relationships with wealth --- ranging from a "high church" tradition of inspirational grandeur to pseudo-evangelical "prosperity churches", as well as denominations that reject all that stuff, and the LDS relationship is unique and (in a relative sense) pragmatic. I don't think your blanket statement really applies here.

A critical comment has been deleted and the incoherent comment of 'tptacek has been placed on top of the subthread.