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Living without a SIM card

habd.as

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Re: Living without a SIM card

#211

Post by cproctor »

cproctor wrote: post #199

Getting rid of my SIM card is attractive to me for financial and political reasons, but it would not be compatible with my loved ones' expectations that I be reachable in an emergency. Here's a compromise I have been thinking about; I wonder if anyone has experience making it work (or knows why it won't) on an unlocked iPhone 6: - Buy a pay-as-you-go SIM card with support for SMS and data, but no voice, for when I'm…

It looks like I can get most of this through Twilio if I'm willing to do some programming. One issue will be that Twilio is blocked from some 2-factor-authentication systems.

Re: Living without a SIM card

#212

Post by mnm1 »

Joeri wrote: post #145
chewz wrote: post #129

I envy the OP. Unfortunately since September 2019 living without SIM card became (practically) illegal in EU. > most online payments above €30 to go through an extra level of verification such as entering a code received via a text message. [2] Most banks unwisely chosen SMS as Strong Customer Authentication providing little choice to customers. https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/payment-services-psd-2-directi... [2] http…

Banks in the US and EU are required to have the identity on file for all bank accounts (ostensibly to combat terrorism), so sharing your phone number with them shouldn’t change the level of privacy. If it is cost people are worried about they can get a prepaid card and never use it except to receive sms. That’s effectively free. Combined with the push to get rid of anonymous accounts and phone numbers there has also…

> I expect to see a time in my lifetime where a country will fully do away with all anonymous forms of payment, effectively making it impossible to be anonymous.

That would mean either the elimination of poverty or a country that so hates its poor, it's willing to remove them from the economy altogether. I highly doubt that will happen, even in the US, where the poor are despised and hated by almost everyone. But then again, you never know.

Re: Living without a SIM card

#213

Post by zimbatm »

chewz wrote: post #129

I envy the OP. Unfortunately since September 2019 living without SIM card became (practically) illegal in EU. > most online payments above €30 to go through an extra level of verification such as entering a code received via a text message. [2] Most banks unwisely chosen SMS as Strong Customer Authentication providing little choice to customers. https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/payment-services-psd-2-directi... [2] http…

One thing I did is to use Twillio to get a mobile phone number (5.-/mo) and forward the SMS to email or whatever. It works pretty well and was easy to setup.

One big advantage is that number-porting attacks are much harder to pull-off with them as they have better security than most phone companies.

One downside is that the SMS must come from the same country. It's a weird limitation of their platform.

Re: Living without a SIM card

#214

Post by hu3 »

guidance wrote: post #202
detaro wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are arguing against something completely different than the subthread is about, while being condescending about it.

My comment fits perfectly well into the discussion, and into the subthread, up to and including said 'condescension'--which literally radiates from many of the 'cell phone junkie' types.

I actually agree with you. The world would be much better if everyone fought for the values they believe. And I do value privacy. Unfortunately for me, life's already quite hard even with all the conveniences that the system offers. It would probably be too hard without them.

I envy those who have enough energy left to fight for a better world after their daily chores. I don't.

So I do my best to be productive, positive and kind. Throwing my phone away right now would not be a little fight. It would cause me problems at work where my boss expects me to be responsive regardless of where I am or if there's a working wifi nearby. I'd also lose business and social opportunities. Being harder to reach would make some friends eventually distance themselves just as a consequence.

I feel you. Have a good week!

Re: Living without a SIM card

#215

Post by huseyinkeles »

Freak_NL wrote: post #188
chewz wrote: post #129

I envy the OP. Unfortunately since September 2019 living without SIM card became (practically) illegal in EU. > most online payments above €30 to go through an extra level of verification such as entering a code received via a text message. [2] Most banks unwisely chosen SMS as Strong Customer Authentication providing little choice to customers. https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/payment-services-psd-2-directi... [2] http…

All but one Dutch bank (newcomer Bunq) offer authentication methods that do not rely on owning a smartphone. Most often this takes the form of a complimentary card reader that uses your debit card as a hardware private key to generate OTP codes. Most banks do try very hard to push you to use their Android or IOS app though. I agree that it is becoming increasingly hard to exist without either an Android or IOS smartp…

ABN Amro (and I think many others as well) send you an e-identifier device and allows you to make online iDeal payments with those devices.

Re: Living without a SIM card

#216

Post by Freak_NL »

huseyinkeles wrote: post #215
Freak_NL wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All but one Dutch bank (newcomer Bunq) offer authentication methods that do not rely on owning a smartphone. Most often this takes the form of a complimentary card reader that uses your debit card as a hardware private key to generate OTP codes. Most banks do try very hard to push you to use their Android or IOS app though. I agree that it is becoming increasingly hard to exist without either an Android or IOS smartp…

ABN Amro (and I think many others as well) send you an e-identifier device and allows you to make online iDeal payments with those devices.

Well yes, all but one Dutch bank offer valid and secure alternatives, including ABN Amro. ABN also keeps nudging you about using their app instead at every turn (I'm a customer).

Although our own government really takes the cake in terms of 'gently nudging' people to use their app for authentication:

https://twitter.com/jdhoek/status/1214969536333651968 (in Dutch, but with screenshots illustrating the 'nudging')

Re: Living without a SIM card

#217

Post by derefr »

hsitz wrote: post #196
chewz wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't blaming EU (I am not in a habit of bashing EU) and I am not saying this is completely bad law. I am just observing the reality on the ground.

As I understand your point it has absolutely nothing to do with it being illegal to not have a SIM card. Your point is simply that it is impractical not to have a SIM card because that makes it difficult to do bank transactions. Big difference, and using 'illegal' in this context is highly misleading.

I think the implication is that if you wanted to function without a SIM card, your only way to do that would involve eschewing all above-board fiscal infrastructure and working with the grey/black market instead.

It's like being an outlaw, or a member of an untouchable caste: sure, you could just hide in a hole forever and wouldn't be breaking any laws, but in order to do anything you'd have to do it in a way that breaks a law.

Re: Living without a SIM card

#218

Post by peterwwillis »

Oof. I honestly don't know which is less secure: SMS or e-mail confirmation. Probably the former, but the latter is probably easy to downgrade into plaintext, and can/does does go through random middle boxes. You can add mitigations all over the client but I'm not aware of any requirement for strong authn+z in the protocol.

As a second factor, SMS is better, unless that 2FA e-mail is allowed to be different from your primary e-mail, and you only every sign into it from your phone.

Re: Living without a SIM card

#219

Post by noirbot »

guidance wrote: post #205
noirbot wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another good example of this sort of behavior - I know someone who doesn't carry any credit cards and prefers to pay cash for everything where possible. This is generally fine, however, since they're responsible enough to be carrying plenty of cash to cover whatever they need. It would be quite annoying if they constantly only had $5 in their wallet and needed their friends to cover for them with a card whenever we w…

But in the example given, it wasn't the boyfriend who was always borrowing his girlfriend's phone to call his mom; it was his mom calling to contact him . Probably because she's also yet another one of those types who Just Can't Understand Why Someone Wouldn't Have A Phone. And yet he's the one imposing on others? I'm sure he would be perfectly fine with her not calling at all, and just speaking with her the next tim…

It can be multiple people's fault. If he knows it will upset his parents to not be able to call him, and at this point clearly knows that they're going to bother his friends instead, that's still a decision he's making. He could tell his friends to just block the number/ignore it, or talk to his parents about not contacting him. Sure, if his mom is stalking him and harassing his friends, that's her fault/problem, but that doesn't mean it's not a burden on his friends. I'd be more sympathetic for sure towards his situation then.

I live tens of hours away from my parents right now. Calling them is how I get/keep in touch with them. If I decided to get rid of my phone, I'd be sure to come to some sort of other solution that would be acceptable to them and not just cut them off.

The issue is he presumably knows that his parents are like this and want to stay in touch with him. If he can't convince them to use email/skype/whatever else, then that's his issue to manage. He's not entitled to push that off onto his friends just because his parents are unreasonable. Either deal with your parents unreasonable demands by having a basic burner phone, or tell all your friends to just not pick up/blacklist it.

To me, is like if you decided you were worried about the environment and started biking everywhere. I can respect that as a decision, but it doesn't mean it's not imposing on me to always be showing up to things late because you haven't adjusted to how long it takes to bike places.

Re: Living without a SIM card

#220

Post by bryan_w »

wolfgke wrote: post #158
hdkwowjdj wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a social cost question, I guess. Your signal: I don't care enough about our communication to use WhatsApp, because of reasons that are obscure to 99% outside a tech community. Similarly, they don't bother to reach out to you on other communication channels, because they don't bother enough. The important thing to understand is, from your communication partners point of view, you create a burden without reason, s…

> The important thing to understand is, from your communication partners point of view, you create a burden without reason They create a burden without reason.

He was making a point about empathy that you seemed to miss.
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