Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

491–500 of 537 posts

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#491

Post by xkall »

tptacek wrote: post #388
x1oqw wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always surprises me that wealthy churches pretend to take Christ seriously, when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money. I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ), but why do the exploited masses believe them?

Different Christian denominations have different relationships with wealth --- ranging from a "high church" tradition of inspirational grandeur to pseudo-evangelical "prosperity churches", as well as denominations that reject all that stuff, and the LDS relationship is unique and (in a relative sense) pragmatic. I don't think your blanket statement really applies here.

The comment you reply to does not say "all churches". It is evident, however, that several large churches do not believe in Christ. The ruthless bureaucratic and greedy Catholic church may serve as an example:

https://www.smh.com.au/national/with-30b-in-wealth-why-is-th...

"John Ellis is no longer a practising Catholic."

"I realised there is nothing special or different about the church ... They act like any other ruthless wealthy organisation," says Ellis. "The more money they’ve got, the more ruthless they will be with it."

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#492

Post by javagram »

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #267

Any discussion related to "church" funds makes me go back to a very interesting question: how much is the Catholic church worth today? I remember a while ago spending a few hours trying to dig some useful info. Of course there's not much online, and estimates range from 100s of B$ to something between 1 and 2 T$. Still credible. The even more interesting part is how the Catholic church managed to amass this huge weal…

Much of the estimated wealth is real estate (churches, schools, universities, hospitals) and artwork that should not be sold as it is being used for charitable or religious purposes or exhibited to the public. It’s hard to estimate since the “church” is composed of so many organizations.

There was also a lot of excess wealth accumulated during the Middle Ages but I believe much of it was seized by governments over the last 500 years, varying from countries like France that even seized ownership of the church buildings to various dissolutions of religious orders and monasteries in other countries.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#493

Post by javagram »

giarc wrote: post #307
simonebrunozzi wrote: post #267

Any discussion related to "church" funds makes me go back to a very interesting question: how much is the Catholic church worth today? I remember a while ago spending a few hours trying to dig some useful info. Of course there's not much online, and estimates range from 100s of B$ to something between 1 and 2 T$. Still credible. The even more interesting part is how the Catholic church managed to amass this huge weal…

>The even more interesting part is how the Catholic church managed to amass this huge wealth over the course of two millenia. Really? I thought it was pretty obvious. They literally pass around a plate and millions of people around the world are expected to put in 10% of their salary. In addition they have been around forever so have a vast collection of property and priceless art etc.

FWIW I don’t believe the Catholic Church teaches a “10% of their salary” tithe at all. Certainly not in the way some other churches do.

The church in the USA receives funds from passing the plate, but European Catholic Churches historically receive their money from a voluntary church tax levied by the civil government, which is also not 10%.

Most parishes I’ve been to in the USA publish their weekly offering and from those numbers it’s pretty clear people are not putting in 10% of their salary. Maybe 1%?

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#494

Post by kevinmchugh »

mnm1 wrote: post #369
tomrod wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for more faiths, just what I saw in the Mormon faith. Basically, they literally believe they are the only church that has authority to act for God on earth, it was given to them, and they will be the world wide government during the millennium (a time period kicked off when Jesus Christ returns, in their view).

> they literally believe they are the only church that has authority to act for God on earth Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, and I'm sure many others (especially Christian) believe the same. Seems like the one thing they have in common is their own narcissistic delusion about their importance. It also makes a great argument against the arrogance and stupidity of such teachings. After all, if only a subset of…

Neither Islam nor Judaism is monolithic and it makes me uncertain of the accuracy of the comment to see them each treated that way.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#495

Post by jki275 »

goto11 wrote: post #484
jki275 wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The writers of the gospels were Jesus’ contemporaries. And I guess you’ve never heard of Josephus? He’s only the most well known Jewish historian since Moses. Jesus most certainly lived, no serious scholar of history claims otherwise.

To be fair, Josephus has only two quotes about Jesus, and one is definitely a forgery, although it is debated if it is a full or only partial forgery. The other quote is considered authentic, but just mention "James, the brother of Jesus". So not a lot to go by. But you are correct that historians generally consider Jesus to be historical. It is not so much due to Josephus though, but more due to critical reading of…

The quote you claim as a forgery has been a subject of much debate, but I'm relatively certain it's not been proven to be so and many consider it to be at least partially authentic.

Regardless, Jesus was absolutely a historical character. No serious historian debates this.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#496

Post by tomrod »

jshevek wrote: post #482
darksaints wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how do you know that your experience is the common one? The exmormon subreddit is an extremely large and active subreddit, with lots of unity in experiences. Its by far the largest known community of ex members of any religion on reddit. If your experience were more common, the exmormon subreddit would probably be as dead as the /r/excatholic subreddit. Now that is a community that really doesn't give a shit if y…

Ex Mormon subreddit participants self select for those who have ex mormom experiences worth discussing.

154k subscribers on a base of 15M --> ~1% that make it through the filters of being able to go online, find reddit, and find enough interest to subscribe. That suggests the experience is common enough to not be disregarded.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#497

Post by darksaints »

swsieber wrote: post #466
darksaints wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The modern church teaches that you should pay tithing irregardless of living condition, income level, destitution or poverty conditions. I taught this principle to people who were literally starving to death in Honduras. It was extremely hard for me to tell people who didn't even have a cup of rice in their 4x4 corrugated steel shack that they needed to donate 10% to the church before they could buy food for their th…

And Jesus praised the widow for casting in all she had. And Elijah took the last of the flour of that one family. The church is hardly unique in Christian theology in asking for sacrifices that requires faith. Also church policy has changed over time too - the word of wisdom is a prime example of this. If you want to find reasons to hate the church, you can. I guarantee it. If you believe God doesn't reward tithing,…

If everybody is paying tithing truly out of faith and it's truly not scummy, there should be no material consequence to financial transparency. If people can look and acknowledge that the Mormon church is a multibillion dollar corporation, and still believe that god wants them to continue donating 10% of their daily pittance in order to build up god's kingdom, then more power to them.

Personally, given what the church claims that they do with the money, I think it's a very simple and pure case of fraud, and I would like my money back.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#498

Post by lcall »

darksaints wrote: post #455
lcall wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious where this info could come from. Like, cars? The quote I heard from one GA (in a newspaper) was "you give them your life, and they give you a car." I once or twice rode in a Church-owned pool car to go to software-dev meetings in another city. And private jets? I read that the late (and wealthy industrialist) Jon Huntsman loaned his own jet to Pres. Hinckley some during those years (for his travels as Pre…

Some research courtesy of your exmormon community: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/45h0je/when_the_b... https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/bpiftw/800000_to_... https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/cvbh8q/impress_yo... https://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/lds/ci_8271793 As far as free university, I know because I went to school with one of Christensen's sons and he told me.

I read some of the beginning. I didn't know who he was at the time, just another commuter to me, but I rode the same UTA bus regularly as Brook Hales to work for a time (it traveled through 2 counties across various towns). No glamour or special treatment there.

In the 2nd link, I believe those individuals, as is common with GAs, had successful careers before becoming full-time Church workers, and are probably wealthy. Elder Ballard worked in a family auto dealership (probably more to it than that, that's what I know), Gong was in international relations, Nelson a ground-breaking, internationally known heart surgeon, etc. When GAs are called, there is usually a blurb online about their previous careers (which they give up), that someone could easily find if desired. So they could easily pay for what they like. It sounds right about the president's apartment, and thankfully so (security/health help). Etc. (As I have now noted elsewhere here, Elder Gay previously founded and was an executive at a private equity firm.)

It is good, though a lot of work, to build something that lasts, which is what these are trying to do. Those good efforts bring long-term peace and joy. I wrote elsewhere here about my personal experience and knowledge of the Church's long-term influence on individuals and families, that I personally know (some more than others), in the hundreds, and of whom I have read their journals, and knowing enough of individuals now, and personalities, to see consistencies in personality and behaviors and culture, to have some confidence there is not deception in the journals that extend back, to Joseph Smith. Regardless of what anyone else says, or the human faults we all do have (I do; and they will be found in any large organization), I have seen and know what I know, both with my human eyes and mind, and in answers to prayer. More, of personal thoughts and experiences, at http://lukecall.net .

Edit: I found a page with links to their bios (fairly international, if you read down & click photos), that indicate education & prior careers: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/leaders .

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#499

Post by lcall »

darksaints wrote: post #350
alanwreath wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've just described FUD. Asking for more transparency isn't bad though - this would require a change in US law or wherever they operate. Start there. Then all religions might meet the standard you're describing. There are abusers in every organization and transparency would be good.

If they're as benevolent of an institution as they pretend, we wouldn't need such a law. They already can publish financial reports without any law compelling them to do so. But they aren't a benevolent institution.

The Church, with the Book of Mormon, are far and away the single best influence in my life. I experience peace amid hard health and other challenges, friends everywhere I go, people who help me and are a good influence, personal guidance in quiet but important ways (I see both the good and the bad based on whether I follow that guiet guidance), and I see the same things in long-term multigenerational ways among very many others (in writing and in person). And, based on experience, great reasons for hope of eternal life in the world to come. For those who distance themselves from it, they are loved, we are close, but I have seen that the multigenerational peace and joy are not the same. I am exceedingly grateful for the Church's influence in my life. Further, I have learned for myself, that God is real, helpful, and kind (both just and merciful, actions have consequences, and extremely patient with us as we repent, aka change back to doing things that help us rather than hurt ourselves).

These are things that no amount of hint & innuendo from others can change, because I have personally seen, experienced, and learned.

I have tried to explain more at my web site (which has no sales or javascript): http://lukecall.net . I think I lack the adequate words.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#500

Post by lcall »

tomrod wrote: post #230
gwilliams wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't get wealthy from it. Those who work for the church full time (with the exception of missionaries) receive a stipend to cover their living expenses and not much else.

> They don't get wealthy from it. Source/citation? My understanding is that salaries and other financials are not public.

As I have noted elsewhere, I have personally known one where I know for certain his family (also not rich, visited their homes for years) was worried about his old car tires' safety for a long drive home, and two others tangentially who I'm somewhat confident were not rich. Another, Bassett, I knew when young, then he made good as a founder/owner in the auto-auction business (where I have a little grunt-level experience). Elder Gay was founder/executive in a private equity firm (quick wikipedia search). The prior careers are available on-line, I'm pretty sure, because there is always some blurb about their prior bios when they are called. Another I knew of in another state who started and ran a locally successful accounting firm. Nelson is widely known to have been a heart surgeon, and it goes on & on.

Edit: I found a page with links to their bios (fairly international, if you read down & click photos), that indicate education & prior careers: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/leaders .

Post reply on HN