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The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

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Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#421

Post by sturgill »

calcifer wrote: post #409
sturgill wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know enough about the legal structure of [1] to have an informed opinion. Contacts and contracts are always the gift to children of connected parents. I hope to give the same to my kids... ;) I’m sure it happens as it does in any family (hello Biden!) but I’m not convinced it’s more prevalent in the Church than any other organization of people. It’s an interesting thought, but I’m not sure how prevalent it is…

> I don’t know enough [...] to have an informed opinion. Spoken like a true believer, welcome to the church!

Come on, man. You can write better arguments than that. I don’t know anything about that particular legal structure.

You used the ellipse cleverly but I’ve been pretty respectful even when others have spoken poorly of some of my deepest beliefs. The least you could do is be cordial in response even if you hold the opposite view.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#422

Post by lcall »

0xcde4c3db wrote: post #398
lcall wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why this and those with similar comments were downvoted. I have spent some time studying both systems (at 2 universities) and observing over decades, and it looks accurate to me. The law of consecration, doctrinally, in all the source documents and major attempts to practice it, is voluntary, as is any true Christian behavior. I learned some things about communism, read a number of books about individuals' e…

As often happens in discussions of political and economic systems, you're comparing an idealized concept of one side to the history of the other side; of course the history side looks worse. ETA: it occurs to me that there's a parallel here to the fundamental attribution error: my favorite system has flaws because its fundamental principles haven't been fully realized, while other systems have flaws because their fun…

The law of consecration has been tried, so there is history: while pioneers were crossing the plains (common efforts to care for the migrating poor, planting crops other later travelers would harvest, etc), one source being a somewhat new book "Saints", new chapters of Vol. 2 still being released, with citations to much source material. Also, Orderville (wikipedia references include Orderville, United Order, and Law of Consecration). There are probably others.

Edit: none of this says people are perfect, but that this aspect of Christianity is very different from communism. (I had a whole semester class on Stalin, and also some limited reading since.)

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#423

Post by nradov »

rayiner wrote: post #373
telmo wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and that is besides the point. Liberal western democracies are not perfect, but they get a few things right and this is one of them. I believe that children are not cattle, and I would keep believing that even if 100% of everyone else thought otherwise.

I’m thinking you’re reading “community property” more literally than I intended it—with the focus on “property” and not “community.” Obviously children are not property. But children are also not independent adults. They must be socialized. Legal codes all over the world, including the UN Declaration of Human Rights, recognize that parents have a right to choose how to socialize their children. My point is that commu…

No thanks. My trashy neighbors from down the street are entitled to exactly zero say in how I socialize my children. They can lump it.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#424

Post by [deleted] »

tomohawk wrote: post #231
xtracto wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an atheist I love reading these passages.. it is amazing how people in this day and age are trying to find "meanings" from a book full of the stories of one person... who lived 2000+ years ago.. imagine if someone tried to find meaning in Beckhams biography 2000 years from now...

Jesus makes several truth claims, that if true, are extremely compelling for why someone may want to pay attention today. One of these is His claim to be God. You can either dismiss Jesus as a lunatic, dismiss Jesus as a liar, or accept Jesus for who He claimed to be. If Jesus was merely a good man, He would not have claimed to be God. That is not something good people do.

[deleted]

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#425

Post by dkarl »

curiousgeorgio wrote: post #348
dkarl wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, if you want to remove your record from the church as a whole (the entire organization), you'd need to be clear about that with your bishop (local leader), and they are instructed to give you details about how to go about removing your record from church headquarters. This is exactly how my friend was treated at every step of the way. They pretended that she hadn't actually asked for the right thi…

I'm sorry about your friend. If it's a case of abuse (as it sounds like), I'm truly sorry, and I don't know anyone - inside or outside the church - who would think that's okay. If she wants her name removed (and it hasn't already been done), that can definitely be done - she just needs to talk to the bishop or stake president and formally request it to be removed (it's really not a complicated process). Those stories…

It's a little bit more complicated than what you're hinting at, but this REALLY misses the point:

> I don't know anyone - inside or outside the church - who would think that's okay

Nobody who was complicit in how she was treated ever decided it was okay or would have stood by the reality of what happened. All they did was have enough faith in the church to feel sure that the actual situation must have been different from the way she described it. That's how virtually every around her felt (or pretended to feel,) not just a few miscreants who slipped through the cracks. Even her parents. They retreated into a fog of believing they didn't know what happened. They had faith that if they heard the complete truth it would vindicate the church, so to this day they believe they haven't heard the truth about what happened yet.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#426

Post by lcall »

darksaints wrote: post #334
starskublue wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the key difference is the Church's system is voluntary and communism is not voluntary.

State communism might not be voluntary, but there are plenty of forms of communism that are voluntary: employee owned companies and cooperatives are literally communist. And I don't really consider it voluntary if I am to believe the consequences that they teach: the threat of being ripped from and permanently separated from your family for eternity is just as coercive of a punishment as the threat of being sent to a…

Nobody I know teaches that, in that way, but that some opportunities and blessings are gained or lost based on our choices: to say otherwise would be simply deceptive. Most marriages say "until death do us part", or such, or assume it, but eternal promises do have requirements to be met. God is both merciful and just: one attribute cannot rob the other. He gives us real choices, too.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#427

Post by yters »

I'm Catholic, and I wonder whether it might be a good test of the divinity of the institution just to give away all the wealth accrued over the centuries. If it is God ordained, then it should survive in the same setting as it was founded, i.e. without any material goods. If not, then why bother with it?

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#428

Post by plorg »

hunter-gatherer wrote: post #185
tomrod wrote: post #9

That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the fina…

> It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact. This is definitely not true. As a Utah native and one who left for my own reasons and still has family in the church, I would say that this statement is completely false. The Mormon church does not practice nor endorse any doctrine relating to shunning or harassment. Just because you left with some personality conflicts and bad terms w…

I can't speak for the LDS church, but my brother left Christianity 5 or 6 years ago. I similarly left a few years later. Initially telling my parents was extremely uncomfortable, which stands to reason. They come from a tradition where parents are made responsible for their children's continued participation and adherence to the church, with eternal consequences for anyone who leaves.

Every time we see my parents they say goodbye as if it's the last time they'll see us. They continue to speak as if we're still participating in the church, and they cry every time my brother, who lives 3 hours away, leaves to go home.

A month ago my parents' church sent my brother a letter threatening him with damnation if he didn't return to Christianity and guilting him for not following in his parents religion. It then suggested he would be excommunicated (which has specific meaning in the denomination, it's not exactly shunning) if he didn't tell them where he was attending, or he could resign. It was sent as registered mail, and written in a way that was meant to be humiliating. My brother wrote back that he happily resigned.

I expect at some point I might receive the same communication. In the Reformed church this is both old and new. The idea of excommunication had existed since before the church came over from Europe. But in recent times churches have found it a useful, quasi-legal way to enforce conformity and allegiance. If that environment is as totalizing a force in your life as the church intends to be, you will find it very difficult to leave. That threat will worry you. But once you've left it often just feels hurtful and vindictive. It doesn't have the reformative effect it is intended to effect.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#429

Post by lcall »

darksaints wrote: post #215
sturgill wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Find me the executive team of a multimillion person company with hundreds of billions of assets making the living stipend of the (relatively few) ecclesiastical leaders of the Church and your argument will have more weight. IIRC, the living stipend for members of the Twelve was around $100k? Or less than the salary of an intern at Google...

What you need to understand is that Thomas Monson, who was an employee of the church (notorious for their extremely low pay) for his entire career, had an estimated net worth of $14m. That is excluding the church owned property that he gets to use free of charge, including private jets, cars, and homes. This is excluding free income sources such as free university for all family and extended family members. Outside o…

I'm curious where this info could come from. Like, cars? The quote I heard from one GA (in a newspaper) was "you give them your life, and they give you a car." I once or twice rode in a Church-owned pool car to go to software-dev meetings in another city. And private jets? I read that the late (and wealthy industrialist) Jon Huntsman loaned his own jet to Pres. Hinckley some during those years (for his travels as President to visit Church members across the world), and maybe after, but calling it free use of "private jets" etc., seems exaggerated (but, for all I know, maybe there is one, and maybe they use it, but I'd be very surprised if there is a "jet pool", and any such thing is not used for pleasure outings. These men have a heavy, hard work schedule until they die, with Mondays off and 2 weeks a year, if I understand correctly. Monson did say he had a home in Midway (? I think: Heber Valley, a gorgeous area), but I doubt the Church owned or bought it. Like, I've been around these people some, and read much, and the tenor of what you are saying just doesn't ring true. One person I know, had some occasional interactions over time, was a GA, and he is definitely not rich (others in his family, also not rich, were offering to pay for new tires for his car, to get him safely back home safely from one reunion, as the tires they saw worried them. Maybe I shouldn't have said that as it was really not my business, but I was there, talked with my dad and/or mom about it, and what you are saying ... just doesn't sound right.)

And how do you know that about free university (and any of it)? I'd be surprised. I'm not asking for a zillion citations, but, I'm skeptical.

Edit: And free use of "private homes"? No idea what you could mean there, unless it is the condo that the president of the Church lives in for security reasons. Pres. Hinckley, a long-time do-it-yourselfer in his own yard & property, said he lived in a "filing cabinet: a condominium! I don't think people were meant to live in condominiums!".

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#430

Post by pc2g4d »

jboggan wrote: post #405
tomrod wrote: post #9

That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the fina…

I don't fully agree with this characterization. My girlfriend and her brother have left the church and there seems to be zero love lost in the family or their friend group that they grew up with. I know that this does happen to many people but it is not a uniform experience.

It varies incredibly from family to family. The negative version of the story is all too common, though.
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