The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church • Hacker News Board

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#291

Post by keiferski » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 7:27 PM UTC

darksaints wrote: post #284

keiferski wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty much true of any online community built around the opposition to something. People that had a positive or simply ‘meh’ experience don’t tend to spend time talking about it online.

The r/exmormon subreddit has 155,000 members. The r/exchristian subreddit has 60,000 members. When you compare as a percentage of global population of members of their respective religions, it looks even larger. You're right that people who have had "meh" experiences don't tend to talk about it online. What is it about being mormon that makes exmormons so bitter, in comparison to more benign religions? Try reading th…

I'm not a Mormon, admittedly know very little about the religion, and don't want to make any statements criticizing or defending it. But it is a mistake to assume that the size of a subreddit is anything but a tiny representation of the real phenomenon. Reddit is not reality. The overwhelming majority of people don't use it or even know what it is.

It may simply be the case that Mormons are more tech-savvy as a group than Christians as a whole and thus they gravitate to online communities.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#292

Post by darksaints » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 7:27 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #283

darksaints wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They don't get wealthy from it. We have no way of knowing that, because the church keeps their finances shrouded from public view. Not even members that have paid 10% for their entire lives have a view into how the money is spent. What we do have is a few leaked pay stubs showing actual amounts, and leaked memos acknowledging the existence of, but not quantifying, other forms of compensation. We also have some tang…

To me, Occam's Razor suggests not that there is a massive conspiracy in the upper echelons of the LDS church where general authorities are glutting themselves on tithes, but rather that Thomas S. Monson had private sources of income outside of his church employment that account for his wealth.

And if it weren't for the fact that there are several thousand known and published leaks of information that the church has tried to cover up and whitewash through "official" media, then that might be a reasonable assumption.

It's not a massive conspiracy. It's a very simple conspiracy: don't tell people what you do with the money they give you, and then they don't have any way to criticize you about how you use it. In fact, the very culture that they've fostered to enable this freedom from criticism (just trust me, I'm a mormon bishop!) has become a problem that others have begun to exploit.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/official-statement/...

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#293

Post by irrational » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 7:28 PM UTC

Here is a related article from Forbes.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2020/12/30/mormons...

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#294

Post by sofal » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 7:36 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #289

knicholes wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno. One has to deal with the random crying, the questions of "Why haven't you baptized your children? I want to spend eternity with my grandbabies!", "They need primary!", etc. Then there's the endless gossip at family activities when you're absent about how you're leading your family to hell.

Which is fine. Families have the right to criticize each other for how they raise their children and to enforce common norms, where they genuinely believe decisions to be harmful. If my brother was raising my nephews/nieces in a way that I felt was harmful you bet he’d get an earful. Families aren’t just federations of sovereign individuals. Kids are community property.

I'm not sure why you think the genuineness of a belief is relevant when it comes to scrutinizing harmful actions based on those beliefs. Lots of people genuinely believe in a lot of harmful things. Some people genuinely believe they need to kick their gay kid out on the street in order for them to learn what's good for them. Some people with great political power genuinely believe that starting an apocalyptic war in the Middle East will usher in the glorious return of their deity. You can genuinely believe that smoking is harmful to unborn children, and you can genuinely believe that leaving the Mormon church will damn your family forever. One of those beliefs is warranted.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#295

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 7:39 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #289

knicholes wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno. One has to deal with the random crying, the questions of "Why haven't you baptized your children? I want to spend eternity with my grandbabies!", "They need primary!", etc. Then there's the endless gossip at family activities when you're absent about how you're leading your family to hell.

Which is fine. Families have the right to criticize each other for how they raise their children and to enforce common norms, where they genuinely believe decisions to be harmful. If my brother was raising my nephews/nieces in a way that I felt was harmful you bet he’d get an earful. Families aren’t just federations of sovereign individuals. Kids are community property.

[deleted]

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#296

Post by darksaints » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 7:42 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #291

darksaints wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The r/exmormon subreddit has 155,000 members. The r/exchristian subreddit has 60,000 members. When you compare as a percentage of global population of members of their respective religions, it looks even larger. You're right that people who have had "meh" experiences don't tend to talk about it online. What is it about being mormon that makes exmormons so bitter, in comparison to more benign religions? Try reading th…

I'm not a Mormon, admittedly know very little about the religion, and don't want to make any statements criticizing or defending it. But it is a mistake to assume that the size of a subreddit is anything but a tiny representation of the real phenomenon. Reddit is not reality. The overwhelming majority of people don't use it or even know what it is. It may simply be the case that Mormons are more tech-savvy as a group…

That's true, it's very hard to conclude anything about a religion by subreddit size, but it is actually pretty simple to infer it.

The largest ex religion communities online (former scientologists, mormons, JWs, adventists, and muslims, in my experience) all have a few things in common. They are from religions with significant control over your life when you are a member, and significant pain and anguish when you decide to leave. For some, that may mean losing your family and friends and professional colleagues (as I have). For others (such as scientologists), that may mean lots of harassment and legal difficulties. For others (such as muslims), that may mean being put to death.

I have no qualms with calling /r/exmormon a very bitter community. We're bitter...with lots of reason to be so. This isn't anything like giving bad reviews on twitter...this is a very active community of thousands of people who have had very negative impacts on their lives due to their association with a religion that controlled large parts of it. They're trying to cope in the only way they know how, by commiserating.

I would say that that should be a very valuable source of information to anybody who is investigating a religion. Sure, if you ask a question, you're going to get very biased answers. But they aren't one off problems, and they aren't dismissible simply because they're bitter.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#297

Post by godelski » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 7:46 PM UTC

dkarl wrote: post #286

curiousgeorgio wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The names don't get removed. Everyone that leaves is just "inactive". Tell me you don't see that. I don't see that. If they're removed, they're removed, at least from any lists that local leaders, members or missionaries could see.

> If they're removed, they're removed, at least from any lists that local leaders, members or missionaries could see. This is exactly the kind of dishonest bullshit line that local leaders use when people ask to be removed and not contacted again. I don't know how these "lists" work internally in the church, but local leaders can happily say, "Sure, we'll remove you from the list. Done! No more visits!" knowing that…

Exactly this, and I thought I was clear with my analogy with the sports team. I have told at least a dozen missionaries and a handful of bishops to not contact me. Yet here we are.

When someone says "I'm out of here" you don't follow them around the country, calling them by name "Hey, so are you ready to come back?" To put it in other words "No means no." following people around like that is harassment and borderline stalking.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#298

Post by wl » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 7:49 PM UTC

tomrod wrote: post #265

tomohawk wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example, Christians and LDS have different answers for these 3 fundamental questions: Who is God? LDS: God was once a man, who became a god There is more than one god, but only one god that we have to do with. Christianity: There is only one God, who is the creator of all other things. What happens when you die? LDS: If you are truly evil, you will go to the bad place. If you are generally ok, you will go to the…

Your example covers a large plurality of Christianity but does not define the umbrella of Christianity. For the record, Mormons consider themselves Christian, and are considered part of the Christian taxonomy. As an example, the first line of "Mormonism" wiki article says: > Mormonism is the predominant religious tradition of the Latter Day Saint movement of Restorationist Christianity started by Joseph Smith in West…

It's beyond dispute that Mormonism is derived from Christianity and considers itself to be the restored, correct form of it.

Still, I think you'd find very few theologians who would consider them to be Christian. Their beliefs are largely based on the Christian scriptures but significantly depart from the traditional form of Christianity outlined in the early creeds. And that's the point of restorationism: Everyone else got it wrong, and those differences REALLY matter to the point where God gave a new revelation to fix it.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#299

Post by gremlinsinc » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 7:50 PM UTC

hunter-gatherer wrote: post #185

tomrod wrote: post #9

That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the fina…

> It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact. This is definitely not true. As a Utah native and one who left for my own reasons and still has family in the church, I would say that this statement is completely false. The Mormon church does not practice nor endorse any doctrine relating to shunning or harassment. Just because you left with some personality conflicts and bad terms w…

I'd have to disagree it doesn't necessarily enforce or push shunment but there is enough 'only way to heaven' talk that it makes family relationships with those still in perilous, and if you're underage and mentally out... gl trying to convince parents to let you resign without getting kicked out of the house.

I left and told my wife I was going to but still it's been a bit of a stressor in our relationship, but I couldn't no longer be part of such a malicious organization that causes so many suicides inside the state of Utah and has such a horrific history of racism.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#300

Post by ashton314 » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 7:53 PM UTC

GnarfGnarf wrote: post #282

The Church gives back too. FamilySearch.org is a website with billions of names, where you can build your genealogy and collaborate with others who share your pedigree and provide you your ancestry from their own research. The website must cost millions to operate, yet is available for free.

familysearch.org is incredible. My previous bishop (a Bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ is essentially a pastor; bishops are unpaid volunteers) worked for Family Search in their engineering department. It most certainly costs millions to operate, and is being extremely actively developed. Last I heard they’re using machine learning to index obituaries from old newspapers so that people could find records of their ancestors more easily. Pretty incredible stuff.

Try taking a look at Family Search. It’s so cool.