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The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

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Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#91

Post by darkerside »

dorian-graph wrote: post #49
x1oqw wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always surprises me that wealthy churches pretend to take Christ seriously, when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money. I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ), but why do the exploited masses believe them?

> when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money I'm guessing you're talking about the moneychangers being thrown out of the temple ? There are examples recorded in the scriptures of tithes and offerings, and also of a people preparing/amassing the relative wealth/supplies (Noah, Joseph, etc). There are multiple levels of preparedness taught in the LDS church. The lowest, the family, being to only have necessary debt…

The moneymakers in the temple were making money for themselves, profiting off of the nominally faithful. This is very different from saying the church shouldn't acquire wealth.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#92

Post by mattrp »

mythrwy wrote: post #41
mattrp wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before I even clicked to see the comments I knew this sentiment would be here. Why is it that anytime a news article is published about some org having a lot of money someone has to say something like this? They have a lot of money. So what? I’m also under the understanding everyone of their members has a years worth of food too. Kind of prescient with cironavirus running around? Full disclosure - I’m not a Mormon.

Of course the sentiment is here! Because it's reasonable! Look, I got no problem with what people believe or how they pray. But 100 billion isn't needed for that so the purpose is??? Will it involve me? And the tax treatment complaint is also perfectly reasonable. None of this is hatred for private property nor religion.

In my view I think you would say this also about Bill gates... who are you to define what is a reasonable amount?

I think a tax policy based on “reasonable” confiscation is not very sound or sustainable and probably worse policy than allowing churches to collect money tax free.

At the same time there are laws in the US at least about how charities must use their cash and if they’ve broken these laws it would be a very serious case for them.

Generally a “reasonable” discussion on HN would involve details of the case and further our understanding of the issue. But that really wasn’t on your mind was it... “My throwaway”?

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#93

Post by bg4 »

fit2rule wrote: post #23
mythrwy wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe poster is somehow confusing the Nauvoo Mormon spaceship from The Expanse with official doctrine. (understandable mistake)

Isn't there an aspect of Mormonism that intends for its saints to one day rule their own planets? I find that kinda cool, honestly.

They ascend to become Gods which is somehow not contradicting the monotheistic aspect of Christianity.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#96

Post by darkerside »

zippie wrote: post #75
weare138 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God." -Jesus Matthew 19:24

I see this quoted a lot whenever there is discussion of wealth. However, as with all verses, the context is important as well as the follow up verses. This is not in defense of. 17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you…

This can be read as meaning that your wealth will be left behind when you die, so you are no longer rich.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#97

Post by dagmx »

zozbot234 wrote: post #81
dagmx wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd definitely not agree with the "protects the most vulnerable against marginalization and oppression" Perhaps if you are a member of the church, but definitely not if you don't abide by the exact, often conservative , rules of a given church. Look at slavery, equal rights for lgbtq and people of color, abortion etc. Not only do people in power use the churches to hide their personal beliefs behind, many churches us…

Conservative churches are a subset of all religious organizations, and most of the time they're just a mirror of overall society, or a sizeable portion of it anyway. And that portion often draws some very real benefits even from an outwardly "conservative" or "fundamentalist" church. Not everyone starts out being radically open-minded and averse to tribalism, some people have to be eased into that kind of stance and…

And I never said this applied to all churches but it does then go back to the central question of this thread: why do churches automatically receive tax exemptions? When it's not provable they're necessarily acting charitably?

The crusades are no longer a thing, but lobbying has arguable replaced it with churches able to do much the same with the vast amounts of money that some of them have earned.

Similarly missions and other forms of preying on vulnerable people is still a thing.

Conversion therapy and forced compliance to church norms are still a thing.

Just because it's not a literal war, doesn't mean it's not achieving the same things.

Besides the point of mentioning the crusades was to point out that oppression powered by the churches is nothing new. It's been a staple of competing views since time eternal, whether in churches or not, but because churches get a free pass, they can greatly amplify oppression as much as they could mitigate it. It's just that you historically and today see much more in the form of oppression than fighting oppression.

And that goes back to churches being able to amass unchecked power and financials by which they can fight anything they perceive as a threat to their model. Just like any other political entity.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#98

Post by krapp »

bg4 wrote: post #93
fit2rule wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't there an aspect of Mormonism that intends for its saints to one day rule their own planets? I find that kinda cool, honestly.

They ascend to become Gods which is somehow not contradicting the monotheistic aspect of Christianity.

Christianity is only monotheistic in name, for "reasons." The Trinity would just be three separate gods in any other religion. Even classifying Father, Son and Holy Spirit as "separate divine aspects of a single God" is basically what Hinduism does, and no one argues that Hinduism is monotheistic that I'm aware of. Also, the way saints and angels have traditionally been regarded in Christian practice (particularly in antiquity, prior to Protestantism) is exactly the way other religions have regarded minor and household gods, or ancestor gods.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#99

Post by themodelplumber »

xrd wrote: post #48

A prior discussion of Clay Christianson mentioned how he wouldn't play basketball on Sunday because it was the first small step that leads to larger steps (of sinning). This is a massive amount of money. I'm struggling to understand if this money was gathered under the tax exempt status of churches in the US. And if this isn't a bigger sin than playing basketball on Sunday, if you believe in sinning. Remember, downvo…

Yeah, the church isn't known for handling the "big picture" questions very well, ironically. Internally it struggles with the checklist syndrome (sports on Sunday is always on there; extrapolations to qualitatively odd outcomes of saving money like what to do when you have a hundred billion dollars in an embarrassing economy where your membership is far less well off than your legal structure--now these items don't fit a checklist as well) and even leadership has been taught by example (from the persecution era) to become emotionally withdrawn and defensive in response to criticism like your own, rather than taking a more circumspect and outwardly honorable, investigative stance. It's really unfortunate.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#100

Post by rrss »

xrd wrote: post #48

A prior discussion of Clay Christianson mentioned how he wouldn't play basketball on Sunday because it was the first small step that leads to larger steps (of sinning). This is a massive amount of money. I'm struggling to understand if this money was gathered under the tax exempt status of churches in the US. And if this isn't a bigger sin than playing basketball on Sunday, if you believe in sinning. Remember, downvo…

Clay Christensen was referring to one of the Ten Commandments - "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."

I don't think many religions count churches not paying taxes as sins.

Incidentally, Christensen almost certainly contributed a rather significant amount of money to this sum, and likely would have said it would be a sin not to have done so. "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings"

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