Apple is actually asking for 100% of SaaS mobile revenue • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple is actually asking for 100% of SaaS mobile revenue

#81

Post by YooLi » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 6:38 PM UTC

anonymous246 wrote: post #69

podperson wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No-one is _required_ to sell stuff in the App Store. Don't sell stuff in the App Store, keep all your profits. > I can understand if such a business would find this unacceptable. Let's say you distribute a FREE app in the App Store and it requires a subscription at $10.00 per month (through Apple) but you provide a handy button labeled "Get subscription for $8.00 per month" that goes to your website. Apple doesn't wa…

> It costs Apple to distribute (and market, and support) your App Give me a break. You used the weasel word "costs" which is technically truthful, because it is greater than zero. But it is not material, IMHO. Because developers PAY $100/developer to get on the Apple developer program. They spend their own money/time to develop the app. And sell it to a user who's PAID for his phone and net access. Apple is serving a…

But they are marketing your app by marketing the platform. Those commercials you see with catchy tunes and hands swiping and flicking apps, those make people want an iOS device to run apps. Everything Apple does is to make consumers want to come to the platform, and based on their numbers, it is working. Then you, the developer, gets to put you app in the only marketplace available to those 100M+ users. That is the value Apple is bringing.

It is the same value other market places bring. People sell on eBay because they know there are eyeballs there. Same with people who sell on Amazon. eBay and Amazon market their platforms to bring that value. No one creates their own webpage when they want to sell some stuff and hope people find it through Google. They go to where the hard part, bringing people to look, has already been done.

Re: Apple is actually asking for 100% of SaaS mobile revenue

#82

Post by tuxychandru » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 6:42 PM UTC

podperson wrote: post #65

mithaler wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and if your profit margin is close to that 30%, as it is with many businesses, you are now required (should you choose to develop an app for iOS) to sell your product to users whom you have to support and stand a very good chance of gaining nothing from. In other words, such a business would be required to offer an option to hand off all of its profit to Apple, should it choose to offer a native iOS app. Apple get…

No-one is _required_ to sell stuff in the App Store. Don't sell stuff in the App Store, keep all your profits. > I can understand if such a business would find this unacceptable. Let's say you distribute a FREE app in the App Store and it requires a subscription at $10.00 per month (through Apple) but you provide a handy button labeled "Get subscription for $8.00 per month" that goes to your website. Apple doesn't wa…

It wouldn't cost apple anything if they just allow applications downloaded of websites to be installed on iDevices. I'm sure subscription services would be happy to host a small application package themselves.

Re: Apple is actually asking for 100% of SaaS mobile revenue

#83

Post by raganwald » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 6:57 PM UTC

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #46

raganwald wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"but Apple has stated they want 30%...." of the revenue from those people who purchase content or subscriptions inside the application. If you purchase your content on Amazon's website, you can play it on an iOS device and Apple doesn't expect a cent.

Well they do expect a cent. Because they've banned you linking to the website, and they've forced you to use their in-app billing system, and they've banned you from incentivizing customers with a lower price elsewhere and they're taking a huge cut from in-app purchases. So unless you can telepathically control how your customers sign up, Apple's going to be getting quite a few of your cents. It's a bit more complica…

https://raganwald.posterous.com/the-freedom-to-eat-pizza

Re: Apple is actually asking for 100% of SaaS mobile revenue

#84

Post by groby_b » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 6:59 PM UTC

portman wrote: post #47

groby_b wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"content" is actually well defined in the App Store terms. And it doesn't include SaaS under it.

You mean these terms? http://www.apple.com/legal/itunes/us/terms.html Here is "content" being used to mean "everything that's in an app": "The Application Provider of each Third-Party Product is solely responsible for that Third-Party Product, the content therein , any warranties to the extent that such warranties have not been disclaimed, and any claims that you or any other party may have relating to that Third-Par…

Those are the consumer terms. Devs and publishers would instead have to look at the approval terms. (http://developer.apple.com/appstore/guidelines.html)

And lo & behold, I give you Section 11.13: "Apps can read or play approved content (magazines, newspapers, books, audio, music, video) that is sold outside of the app"... yadda, yadda.

Sounds like a definition of "content" to me...

Re: Apple is actually asking for 100% of SaaS mobile revenue

#85

Post by groby_b » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 7:01 PM UTC

bradleyland wrote: post #60

groby_b wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never even entertained the idea somebody would consider SaaS "content". The thing also lists explicitly what they consider content. There's no "etc." Yes, you can probably bend it to mean anything, but as is, this really doesn't seem to include SaaS.

"this really doesn't seem to include SaaS" Today, it doesn't, but based on Apple's ever expanding scope, that's not a bet I'm willing to make. We're sticking to HTML5 web apps and making sure they run on Android browsers as well.

That's probably a sound business strategy if you don't want to (or can't afford to) take the cut.

I'm not saying "this could never happen". I'm saying "the OP is making stuff up to get page views"

Re: Apple is actually asking for 100% of SaaS mobile revenue

#86

Post by blueben » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 7:03 PM UTC

YooLi wrote: post #81

anonymous246 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It costs Apple to distribute (and market, and support) your App Give me a break. You used the weasel word "costs" which is technically truthful, because it is greater than zero. But it is not material, IMHO. Because developers PAY $100/developer to get on the Apple developer program. They spend their own money/time to develop the app. And sell it to a user who's PAID for his phone and net access. Apple is serving a…

But they are marketing your app by marketing the platform. Those commercials you see with catchy tunes and hands swiping and flicking apps, those make people want an iOS device to run apps. Everything Apple does is to make consumers want to come to the platform, and based on their numbers, it is working. Then you, the developer, gets to put you app in the only marketplace available to those 100M+ users. That is the v…

Apple is marketing their hardware product and the platform, not your app.Yours is just one app out of hundreds of thousands, soon to be millions.

If Apple is eating your businesses margins, and you gain nothing from operating on their platform, then what's the point? "I get no profit from my customer, and this may even be costing me money because I'll never recover the cost of iOS app development and maintenance, but at least I got to pay $100 for the privilege of being app #823,465".

Re: Apple is actually asking for 100% of SaaS mobile revenue

#87

Post by groby_b » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 7:04 PM UTC

natrius wrote: post #37

groby_b wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really - all apps that offer subscriptions must go through Apple's mechanism anyways . And subscription is (IMHO) well defined as referring to content, with types of content enumerated. So unless you make the case that SaaS is content, the post is baseless.

Baseless? Because Apple would never try to skim 30% of all the revenue that flows through their devices. That's crazy talk. /sarcasm The post is absolutely not baseless. Apple hasn't made their intentions clear regarding SaaS subscriptions, and it is likely that they want that money as well.

Making a statement of fact ("Apple is taking 100% of mobile SaaS revenue") with no basis in reality is pretty much the definition of baseless. Unless and until Apple speaks on SaaS, this is a figment of the authors imagination. I'm not saying "it can't happen". I'm saying "not true as of right now"

I'm surprised "making shit up" qualifies as news on HN these days.

Re: Apple is actually asking for 100% of SaaS mobile revenue

#88

Post by ianburrell » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 7:09 PM UTC

podperson wrote: post #65

mithaler wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and if your profit margin is close to that 30%, as it is with many businesses, you are now required (should you choose to develop an app for iOS) to sell your product to users whom you have to support and stand a very good chance of gaining nothing from. In other words, such a business would be required to offer an option to hand off all of its profit to Apple, should it choose to offer a native iOS app. Apple get…

No-one is _required_ to sell stuff in the App Store. Don't sell stuff in the App Store, keep all your profits. > I can understand if such a business would find this unacceptable. Let's say you distribute a FREE app in the App Store and it requires a subscription at $10.00 per month (through Apple) but you provide a handy button labeled "Get subscription for $8.00 per month" that goes to your website. Apple doesn't wa…

The problem is that they will be required to sell subscriptions through Apple. The new rule is that apps that offer subscriptions through other sources must also include in-app subscriptions for the same price through Apple's store.

Re: Apple is actually asking for 100% of SaaS mobile revenue

#89

Post by gte910h » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 7:23 PM UTC

towelrod wrote: post #15

scrrr wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. But how can one oppose new methods of the closed, proprietary system that generates revenue, when the open alternative doesn't?

That's not what is happening here. My company makes all of its money from subscription services that we sell directly to customers. Now if we provide a IOS app to access that content, we risk losing 30% of our revenue if the user happens to sign up via the app instead of via our website. I'm not sure what "open alternative" you are referring to. My website -- built on "open" everything, other than the subscription co…

I can help you with this problem towelrod.

Two solutions present themself. Solution 1: Give user a separate feature for "Mobile Access" only stick that on the appstore.

Solution 2: Apple may grow wise to solution 1, in which case, make an API to your product, then have a 3rd party developer legally unrelated to your first company make a native product which accesses your product.

Apple has no relation to your real product, however you can offer a free subscription app to your service as it's unrelated an just using an API (a la dropbox or freshbooks).

Re: Apple is actually asking for 100% of SaaS mobile revenue

#90

Post by ThomPete » Wed, Feb 16, 2011, 7:25 PM UTC

anonymous246 wrote: post #69

podperson wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No-one is _required_ to sell stuff in the App Store. Don't sell stuff in the App Store, keep all your profits. > I can understand if such a business would find this unacceptable. Let's say you distribute a FREE app in the App Store and it requires a subscription at $10.00 per month (through Apple) but you provide a handy button labeled "Get subscription for $8.00 per month" that goes to your website. Apple doesn't wa…

> It costs Apple to distribute (and market, and support) your App Give me a break. You used the weasel word "costs" which is technically truthful, because it is greater than zero. But it is not material, IMHO. Because developers PAY $100/developer to get on the Apple developer program. They spend their own money/time to develop the app. And sell it to a user who's PAID for his phone and net access. Apple is serving a…

If your ROI isn't going to cover the $100/developer and the cut that apple want's then you have bigger problems to deal with.

If you want freedom why not choose Android?

Then you don't have to pay anything and you get all the profit.

Only problem of course is that no one on Android is actually paying for their apps.

You are paying for access to a platform where many people actually pay for their apps. That is worth something and it is hopefully worth much much more than what apple charges.