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The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

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Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#61

Post by dorian-graph »

tomrod wrote: post #54
dorian-graph wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For the record I left several years ago, but have many family members still heavily involved. It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact. I've seen people leave with and without. As to why they've not left with dignity, it's sometimes not one-sided. Edit: For those who are making many negative guesses and assumptions about my comments. My comment had nothing to do with the OP's…

Given that we haven't met, dorian-graph, this starts with the assumption that what people like me went through is trivial. For decency sake I ask you to reconsider this as a default position. In order to get my records at least flagged as no longer a Mormon, thus to keep random visits from local congregations from occurring, I had to get a lawyer involved. In order for my children to not be repeatedly hounded by some…

> Given that we haven't met, dorian-graph, this starts with the assumption that what people like me went through is trivial. For decency sake I ask you to reconsider this as a default position.

What indicated that I thought it was trivial? It's not my default position, nor has it ever been my position that it's trivial—I know absolutely that it's not. Speaking of assumptions?

Edit: For others, there's been substantial additions to the parent comment of this comment.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#62

Post by calibas »

I was told that capitalism is supposed to be opposed to ideals like theocracy, monarchy and socialism, but look at the Mormons, the Evangelicals, Saudi Arabia and China, they're better at capitalism than most capitalists.

And I'm not ranting against capitalism, I'm against this fairy tale idea that capitalism somehow magically brings freedom. Especially in America, it's become part of national pride, yet we've forgotten about boycotts and "voting with your wallet", so the system is largely directed by blind greed and powerful special interests.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#63

Post by hpoe »

Many have been asking what the Church does with the money it has. The official response can be found here https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-of-j...

In addition this is the official response of the Church in reply to an almost identical story that ran not too long ago https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/first-presi...

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#64

Post by camhart »

wincy wrote: post #12

So I’m officially a Mormon but am not a tithing member or active at all. I’ve asked some of my Mormon friends about this and their response is basically “well of course they are, how else would they build Zion in the city of Independence, Missouri?”. They’ve said that’s where the latter days will be spent a long time ago, and they’re preparing to make that a reality “when the time comes”. They have a form of socialis…

I actually had the same thought back in high school. In my opinion there's an important difference though. Communism is forced upon you and removes freedoms. Law of consecration is voluntary--a choice you make.

Most Bishops (local leaders) will tell the family to stop paying tithes for a time or to continue to pay but then they turn around and give them food and a check for rent/mortgage until you're back on your feet. They'll work with you and frequently require that you do certain things though--like look for a job--in order to continue receiving assistance.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#65

Post by jshevek »

tomrod wrote: post #54
dorian-graph wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For the record I left several years ago, but have many family members still heavily involved. It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact. I've seen people leave with and without. As to why they've not left with dignity, it's sometimes not one-sided. Edit: For those who are making many negative guesses and assumptions about my comments. My comment had nothing to do with the OP's…

Given that we haven't met, dorian-graph, this starts with the assumption that what people like me went through is trivial. For decency sake I ask you to reconsider this as a default position. In order to get my records at least flagged as no longer a Mormon, thus to keep random visits from local congregations from occurring, I had to get a lawyer involved. In order for my children to not be repeatedly hounded by some…

Your suggestion that " this starts with the assumption that what people like me went through is trivial" is a non- sequitur.

You made a generalization, the response above simply suggests a more nuanced view. They did not suggest anything about your specific situation.

Edit: Specifically "It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact" was the generalization. When I read this I also thought "that's simply not true. I hope someone points out that it depends on the circumstances and the people involved".

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#66

Post by jawns »

lr4444lr wrote: post #2

How much does the Roman Catholic Church have, especially when you appraise the artwork?

Do you know why the Catholic Church is the custodian of so much art? Precisely because it is understood that the artwork would never be sold. Many artists and other owners of art gave the works because they saw this custodial arrangement as the best way to ensure that the art would be around long after their deaths for people to enjoy. So yes, you can appraise the art and say it would be worth $X millions if sold in the open market, but that's entirely against the point of the Church being the custodian of the art.

Think of it like a cemetery. That cemetery has a property value, and in a metro area it could be quite high. But the custodians of the cemetery wish to maintain it in perpetuity, and the people who have chosen that cemetery as their final resting place are counting on them to do so. Even if that property could conceivably be sold for a great price, that doesn't mean the cemetery custodians are rolling in dough, because they have committed NOT to sell.

So if you look at the actual operating budget of the Vatican or any Catholic diocese, you will see that it is relatively modest. The so-called riches of the Vatican are generally things that can't be sold, borrowed against, etc.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#67

Post by cultus »

zozbot234 wrote: post #53
cultus wrote: post #39

I cannot fathom why churches are automatically tax exempt. Regular nonprofits have to jump through all kinds of hoops to prevent these kind of shenanigans. We are supposed to have a secular government. How is it that we single out this one class of institution for special treatment?

Religious orgs are a time-tested model for providing sustainable and widespread social cohesion, which is a huge positive externality and also protects the most vulnerable against marginalization and oppression. The tax exemption seems obviously warranted on that basis alone, even abstracting away from any of the more visible charity work or social support that these orgs usually provide.

As a gay man, I can tell you that churches did not help protect me from oppression growing up. Quite the opposite. Your assertion about positive externalities seems highly suspect to me, and dependent on the institution.

Charities also often have positive externalities, but they have far more regulation than churches. Again, why the special treatment?

The social cohesion aspect of churches is gone at this point as well. That may have been true 50 years ago, but not today.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#68

Post by dagmx »

zozbot234 wrote: post #53
cultus wrote: post #39

I cannot fathom why churches are automatically tax exempt. Regular nonprofits have to jump through all kinds of hoops to prevent these kind of shenanigans. We are supposed to have a secular government. How is it that we single out this one class of institution for special treatment?

Religious orgs are a time-tested model for providing sustainable and widespread social cohesion, which is a huge positive externality and also protects the most vulnerable against marginalization and oppression. The tax exemption seems obviously warranted on that basis alone, even abstracting away from any of the more visible charity work or social support that these orgs usually provide.

I'd definitely not agree with the "protects the most vulnerable against marginalization and oppression"

Perhaps if you are a member of the church, but definitely not if you don't abide by the exact, often conservative , rules of a given church.

Look at slavery, equal rights for lgbtq and people of color, abortion etc. Not only do people in power use the churches to hide their personal beliefs behind, many churches use their power to oppress others.

I mean the crusades were a thing...

I'll agree churches provide social cohesion but often at the cost of tribalism against people outside that given churches norms.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#69

Post by pqla1 »

dorian-graph wrote: post #49
x1oqw wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always surprises me that wealthy churches pretend to take Christ seriously, when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money. I get why the churches do it (of course they don't believe in Christ), but why do the exploited masses believe them?

> when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money I'm guessing you're talking about the moneychangers being thrown out of the temple ? There are examples recorded in the scriptures of tithes and offerings, and also of a people preparing/amassing the relative wealth/supplies (Noah, Joseph, etc). There are multiple levels of preparedness taught in the LDS church. The lowest, the family, being to only have necessary debt…

> Why does the LDS church do it?

To go into detail would probably be outside the scope of HN, but if this is a serious question, Richard Dawkins is a good source on how the LDS church was founded.

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