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France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down older iPhones

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Re: France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down older iPhones

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. And between going after Microsoft, Google, Facebook, and now Apple one really has to wonder if "biggest offender" just coincidentally seems to mean the same thing as "non-European offender" or if there's a reason for this pattern.

So punish smaller European firms first just to not give the impression that it's anti-US? Or go after the companies actually doing it at scale and owning most of the market? What irrationality, twisting everything to be some secret anti-US agenda than to just assume/see the obvious that the big players are the big offenders and they happen to be US players (for now).

> So punish smaller European firms first just to not give the impression that it's anti-US?

Yes, go fine every other company that throttled processor clock rates when battery power supply was low. Apply the law equally and that would convince me that this isn't discriminatory enforcement.

The reality is that this would never be carried out, since effectively every phone, tablet, or laptop maker would be fined. Throttling processor clock rates when battery voltage is low is something that every good electronics manufacturer does. Because if they didn't your device would stop working when the battery is old, close to discharged, too cold, or more. By throttling clock rates, the phone still functions but with a slower clock rate. The user impact is strictly better (a slowdown vs. a crash or not even being able to boot). Every mobile device manufacturer did (and still does) do the same thing that Apple did to its iPhones.

Re: France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down older iPhones

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like an American persecution complex more than anything else. Americans and their corporations seem to think that regulation is persecution.

I really don't I made it clear how universal clock throttling is to account for unreliable power sources. Every tablet, laptop, and phone does this. Your device wouldn't be able to boot up in cold weather if it didn't. Your device would start crashing sporadically when your charge is low. This is basic battery management. If a phone didn't do this it would start to crash with a 1-2 year old battery instead of just sl…

IANAL, but you seem to be trying to apply law as a scientist. Has anyone complained (so massively that it has become noticed) that their tablets or laptops run slower after some time?

(BTW, laptops would report bad-battery condition usually, this is how you know you need a replacement, which is an easy operation with them.)

Re: France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down older iPhones

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is like saying that an appropriate fix for a car manufacture is to limit the maximum speed of a car to 25 miles per hour. It breaks so many use cases that the car becomes worthless. Would you prefer the car simply turn off entirely while driving at highway speeds? Because phones with this issue would turn off entirely below certain charge levels, when the batteries had this issue. A more appropriate analogy wo…

Standard practice is engine check light, then mechanic looks at it, then you replace the part for £X using one of several generics, or a first-party part if you want. So, Apple could instead have had a "battery EOL" warning, sold batteries and specs to 3rd party market, and ensured batteries were easily replaceable. Oh, why didn't they do that I wonder, maybe because they've spent the last decade making their stuff h…

They did implement a battery EOL warning. What are you blathering about?

It’s been established many times, my argument is not about their initial response, but what they implemented in the next iOS version. A battery control center that tells you your battery’s health, a warning when it’s in bad enough shape that it’s being throttled and needs replacing, the ability to control whether it’s throttled, and a recall/replacement program for affected models.

The initial fix was to throttle the phones, but we all (including myself) agree that was insufficient. But I also believe engineering resources are finite, and I have trouble believing apple would have been able to do the whole control center/notification thing as the first emergency fix.

Re: France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down older iPhones

#274
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any reference at all for this? My iPhone X is 3 years old, and feels just as fast as when it was new.

Reference for what, exactly? There are no references that highlight the issue of storage performance in iPhones. I haven’t even found a review that looks at storage performance of iPhones in the past three generations. Brand new performance, not even performance over write cycle. That is the issue I’m raising. If you want a reference that proves that NAND performance degrades over write cycles: then I will only list…

Sure - entropy.

But is there any evidence that translates into an appreciable impact on device performance?

Perhaps it doesn’t, and this is why nobody is talking about it.

Re: France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down older iPhones

#275
post #75
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it not right?

Because Apple sets the borders of the "garden". Once you buy something it is yours. If I buy an apple from grocery store, the store shouldn't dictate how I should use that apple.

This has nothing to do with the question.

Re: France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down older iPhones

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Standard practice is engine check light, then mechanic looks at it, then you replace the part for £X using one of several generics, or a first-party part if you want. So, Apple could instead have had a "battery EOL" warning, sold batteries and specs to 3rd party market, and ensured batteries were easily replaceable. Oh, why didn't they do that I wonder, maybe because they've spent the last decade making their stuff h…

They did implement a battery EOL warning. What are you blathering about? It’s been established many times, my argument is not about their initial response, but what they implemented in the next iOS version. A battery control center that tells you your battery’s health, a warning when it’s in bad enough shape that it’s being throttled and needs replacing, the ability to control whether it’s throttled, and a recall/rep…

Ah, OK, so when the battery started failing a dialog came up "battery expired: do you want to enter low power mode" and people clicked yes?

I thought that instead of telling people they'd just underclocked all the systems secretly?

Do you have a reference for what the on-screen warnings looked like?

Re: France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down older iPhones

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did implement a battery EOL warning. What are you blathering about? It’s been established many times, my argument is not about their initial response, but what they implemented in the next iOS version. A battery control center that tells you your battery’s health, a warning when it’s in bad enough shape that it’s being throttled and needs replacing, the ability to control whether it’s throttled, and a recall/rep…

Ah, OK, so when the battery started failing a dialog came up "battery expired: do you want to enter low power mode" and people clicked yes? I thought that instead of telling people they'd just underclocked all the systems secretly? Do you have a reference for what the on-screen warnings looked like?

They did the throttling without any dialogs in the beginning. In the very next point release of iOS, that evolved into a battery health control panel where you can see the health of your battery, and it alerts you if it’s being throttled.

I don’t know why this is so hard to understand: their initial response was wrong, but they corrected it. Everyone who says “why didn’t they do X” is ignoring that they did the right thing, eventually.

Implementing the battery control panel the first time would have been the best route, but developing such a thing takes time, and with sudden shutdowns happening for a large percentage of customers, they did a stopgap that was questionable. Is it really so evil to make a quick hack at first and make a better solution in a software update? I feel like the whole industry does this.

Re: France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down older iPhones

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don't I made it clear how universal clock throttling is to account for unreliable power sources. Every tablet, laptop, and phone does this. Your device wouldn't be able to boot up in cold weather if it didn't. Your device would start crashing sporadically when your charge is low. This is basic battery management. If a phone didn't do this it would start to crash with a 1-2 year old battery instead of just sl…

IANAL, but you seem to be trying to apply law as a scientist. Has anyone complained (so massively that it has become noticed) that their tablets or laptops run slower after some time? (BTW, laptops would report bad-battery condition usually, this is how you know you need a replacement, which is an easy operation with them.)

People have indeed complained - for decades - the same way people complain that their cars run like crap of they never change the oil. But companies can't change the laws of physics. Again, if this functionality does not exist then these phones wouldn't just be slow, they would be unusable.

As far as ease of replacement goes, Apple prioritizes form factor over ease of service. Mercedes vs. Toyota.

Re: France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down older iPhones

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, boss. I've been to the "genius bar" half a dozen times, asking them to replace the battery on my phone, which would only last a few hours, and they refused not only warranty service but, could I just pay them to fix the phone? And they said no. In every case, my only option was to buy the newest phone. In once case, they blamed me for using Facebook too much for a faulty battery. Same with various iMac models I…

What phone? If they don’t have the parts, what do you expect them to do?

Sorry, I realized I didn't answer your question. It wasn't that they didn't have the parts-- they REFUSED to service the phone because the "computer says the battery is ok" even though it only lasted 3 hours.

Re: France fines Apple €25M for iOS software that slowed down older iPhones

#280
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are probably thousands of design decisions that go into making a phone like this. Who is supposed to decide which ones get a notice and which ones don't? Apple probably already has some sort of organization that deals with these communication issues. Is this fine a reasonable punishment for getting one thing wrong?

> Who is supposed to decide which ones get a notice and which ones don't? The ones that change a feature after the phone is sold when that feature was prominently marketed to consumers is a safe minimum threshold for what you need to notify your customers of. If they changed it after 6 months because of a battery design flaw, there would be a class action lawsuit for false advertising. Natural processes that all batt…

Upgrading a phone is changing a feature. For example, an update that added features to the control center but sacrificed some accessibility. Would you want Apple and other phone manufacturers to stop shipping updates? Because if what you propose goes into legislature there's a non-zero chance that will happen.
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