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No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

blog.interviewing.io

601–610 of 646 posts

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#601
post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a full-time musician is a job too, with the equivalent of interviewing. If someone prefers software, let them. And you can't quit your job to live minimally if you have zero or less net worth. Expenses only go so low. Saying it's "easy to be free" is massively condescending to every person that struggles to get over the poverty line. Not everyone can just "get" gigs whenever they want.

Buddy I have has been homeless, in jail, never finished school, etc, etc, etc and this year he hopes to break the 7 figure income mark after more than a decade of mid-six figure income. No trust fund. No connections. No leg up. Yes you can do it. Excuses galore though.

I wasn't talking about whether people can do it.

It's not easy, and most people can't just quit their job right now, or within a month or two.

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the small things this whole industry is a toxic brew I'm sick of all of it

Do you have a plan on something else to do? I quit my job and got a part time job doing development in a different field after a few toxic years. The same lack of understanding/appreciation can be felt in some jobs, but a change might be good? Ultimately I'd work at a garden centre or something and be outside more, but the pay would be less ! In any case, hope you have a plan.

I've taken my learnings and rebranded myself as a hands on process and transformation consultant You'd be amazed how much value a truly agile workflow provides to the client relationship when centered on the principles of knowledge and relationship building and based on mutual investment What's killing me is how many young minds are devoting years of their lives chasing grades in university only to enter the workforce and fall in line with the false corporate stereotypes when there is a wealth of knowledge and joy to be had with much less stress and way more quality of life

I have so much to write it causes me to choke on my words but I'm telling you people are wasting their lives away and I'm sure not having it

It's cool you've also branched off into something a bit off the beaten path I'd love to compare notes if you'd be up for it

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#603

I'm so disappointed to read comments on this thread to the effect of "There's nothing in it for the company but risk". I once put in about 8 hours on a take home project at a company (well known in these parts) that I had tremendous respect for, only to get an email back with "sorry, not up to par. We need someone with more experience". I asked them for a couple quick points on what I could have done better. I had ze…

> I asked them for a couple quick points on what I could have done better.

I feel your pain, but doing this gets them nothing and costs them effort.

It might also be harmful. If the advice is "we needed more experience in X", and your reaction to it was either not apply for jobs asking for X (because you are unlikely to get them), or to get more training in X then that would be wonderful outcome for both you and the company. But as someone who has hired people, the most likely outcome is you are training someone on how to lie better about their expertise in X.

That makes this a win for you, a lose for the company doing the hiring. In my experience that means it ain't going to happen.

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#604
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hot take: you could hire someone who did absolutely well in the interview, and they could find a few weeks into the job that they loathe everyone, and go on a social media rampage. What I’m getting at is, there will always be bad apples, or people who react in a way that damages your organization. But not providing useful feedback to people who ask for it simply because one person went crazy is punishing a lot more p…

In our case, it's not an iron-clad no feedback allowed policy. We're just much more careful about giving it, approval is given on a case-by-case basis. A good typical whiteboard interview naturally includes hints, feedback, and collaboration. After several hours of it, we have a very good idea of how well they may respond to feedback from members of our organization. Honestly, I love giving feedback. I love helping c…

I try to give interview feedback on every interview I go on, where I am the person being interviewed. Obviously, companies who provide me with actionable or useful feedback get actionable and useful feedback from me in return:

Interviewer: you have great interpersonal communication but I think you need a bit more knowledge in python techniques XYZ. I like being up front and transparent, and the python stuff is a big deal to us, so although you had a great set of traits, we want someone stronger in python.

Me: Thank you for giving me a clear indication on what was important, where I was strong, and most importantly, for not giving me a “we’ll call you if we want to move forward” response. I highly respect you for not wasting my time unnecessarily.

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I have done hundreds of interviews, and I used to do a very easy, basic comp sci test. The last question I would ask was, "Tell me about a book, cd or movie that you've read/listened to/watched that was interesting or excited you." The point was to see if the person was engaging with the universe, not to judge their taste or anything else. You'd be surprised how many people get tripped up by this. The worst ans…

Throwaway here, for obvious reasons, but I have to ask: is this a pisstake? I've read this comment about half a dozen times over the past 12 hours or so and I just can't get over it. Did you seriously grade whether people were "engaging with the universe" (WTF?) based on what their favourite book/CD/movie is and how much they enjoyed it? Did you seriously dock points from a candidate who obviously didn't care about C…

I'm sorry mister or miss throwaway. You have (purposefully?) misinterpreted almost everything I've said in the weird, most twisted and evil way possible. You've made wild accusations without any knowledge of the situation and as such, this shall be our last interaction.

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing interviews (as an interviewer) greatly reduced my impostor syndrome as a junior software engineer. When a guy interviewed with 10+ years of "experience" couldn't write a for loop was eye opening. I work really bad under pressure and don't like memorizing algorithms. I hate programming anything complex on a whiteboard or anyway on-site. Simple stuff, like your example is fine. It's a good way to weed out charlat…

I dislike pseudocode. I make candidates use an actual language because it smoke checks the ones who put X years of Y language. I don't demand perfection, just that the general shape be there.

Which would punish people like me who will work across 3-4 languages daily and therefore often forget or confuse which library call does what in what language.

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think false negatives are good. How many positions go unfilled for months and years? A lot. At a larger company, it won't take long before they remove the position entirely. They might not be wrong to do so either. Eventually your bus factor goes to zero, and whole teams go away. I'd rather that happen, than hire unqualified people. Hire and then fire someone is damn expensive - months of salary and a lot o…

I have personally hired false positives. Like you say, they are expensive. I have never once hired someone who was literally incapable of doing the job. It's never because of work directly. A person who was incredibly professional in the interview turned into a massive asshole at the office. One fought good coding practices because he thought it was over-engineering. Another spent all day playing online poker on thei…

> One fought good coding practices because he thought it was over-engineering.

You would have considered me a false positive then, despite the success of my career.

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I have done hundreds of interviews, and I used to do a very easy, basic comp sci test. The last question I would ask was, "Tell me about a book, cd or movie that you've read/listened to/watched that was interesting or excited you." The point was to see if the person was engaging with the universe, not to judge their taste or anything else. You'd be surprised how many people get tripped up by this. The worst ans…

The point was to see if the person was engaging with the universe, not to judge their taste or anything else. You'd be surprised how many people get tripped up by this. Not surprised at all. You know your motivation; they don't. It probably causes lots of candidates to mildly panic as they try to decide what they can say that won't make them come across as too weird/boring/old/etc.

That's fair. Is it, inequitable of me, to expect someone to describe something that excites them?

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't find the article because its hidden behind Google's previously admitted coin flip, brain teasers. An interview only has one question to answer: How long will it take this person to do what I need? Everything after that is you trying to sell the company to the candidate. After you do the interviews, you pick the person who needs the least ramp time. Quietly staring at a person writing on a whiteboard while tak…

I simply have to disagree. The amount of unqualified candidates that have a decent CV and are reasonable to talk to, but completely unable to correctly write a while loop is too damn high. That is what my whiteboard questions filter out. They're super easy stuff such as "I give you as input a list of integers, return the index of the first consecutive pair of numbers that when added is 42 - you can use any language o…

"You'd be shocked how many people that write years of relevant programming experience and fail that."

Do you find people who did well on a preliminary test where they wrote some code fail this? If not, then why do the whiteboard? If people do fail, do you assume it's because they cheated on the previous test?

I think your stated explanation is incoherent, because you are claiming that self-taught developers can "get something done" without being able to write your ultra-simple algorithm. How can that be? You're not saying that someone can't handle B-Trees and you therefore won't hire them, you're saying they can't do anything and yet somehow they were hired and do stuff at other places. If they can "get something done", why are they useless?

If your comments are based on a lot of genuine experience and sincere and heartfelt, had you considered that maybe what's going on is simply that a large percentage of the people in the industry do not and cannot do whiteboard programming, but only write code at a computer? I have literally never had to, to get a job, and I'm not sure I can remember doing it in undergraduate classes either.

Joel Spolsky (and no doubt others) wrote something about how you can't hire the best people by just advertising a job because mostly the same people apply to all the jobs and the really good ones aren't in your pool.

But a corollary to that, I think, is that when you do hire some decent people, and you go on doing it, because it worked adequately, you are likely to wrongly conclude that is what decent people look like. It's not just the rock stars that are missing from your pool, it's the people who are terrible at interviews and are much more loyal to a job than those who can handle whiteboards and small talk. You may be in a bubble where you, and the people you hire, are working much harder than people in another bubble, but it's just a different way of doing things, not the only way.

I think this idea of your hiring pool not being representative and getting wrong ideas of what good and bad people are like has implications for diversity of various types, but I'm not going to flesh that out here.

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have personally hired false positives. Like you say, they are expensive. I have never once hired someone who was literally incapable of doing the job. It's never because of work directly. A person who was incredibly professional in the interview turned into a massive asshole at the office. One fought good coding practices because he thought it was over-engineering. Another spent all day playing online poker on thei…

> One fought good coding practices because he thought it was over-engineering. You would have considered me a false positive then, despite the success of my career.

Nobody is perfect for every job.

A phone app is one thing, ERP or accounting is another, avionics is another.

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