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Japan Turns to Coal After Closing Nuclear Power Plants

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Re: Japan Turns to Coal After Closing Nuclear Power Plants

#41
post #30

Knowledgeable nuclear folks: Is there a way of designing safe nuclear plants in safe places in the world and efficiently exporting that energy to other parts within that same region? Thank you for your answers. I know v little on the subject but am a big believer in the inherent power that nuclear generates and its’ cost effectiveness.

I would look at France's history, they are one of the most nuclear centric countries, with (relatively) few major accidents. In general, build a not-fancy light water reactor away from the ocean and major fault lines. We have the most experience with LWRs, and they are pretty safe except for the impact of major natural disasters. There are other reactor designs, but we really need more experience with them.

Yes let's look at France, closing down 14 reactors and investing in renewables: https://phys.org/news/2018-11-france-nuclear-reactors-macron...

Time and money has ran out for nuclear.

Re: Japan Turns to Coal After Closing Nuclear Power Plants

#42
post #20
post #6

Same thing happened in Germany. This is a really hard problem. I consider myself pretty pro-nuclear but it can never be 100% safe. I can't blame Japan for wanting out after Fukushima, but at the same time there has to be some kind of approach that balances short-term safety against the long-term consequences of carbonization.

> Same thing happened in Germany. Germany turned to coal? It didn't happen. Germany actually turned to renewables. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Germany#...

"Turned to renewables" while burning 36% coal according to your graph.

Yes, if they've always been using coal, I guess technically they didn't "turned to" coal, but how is it better?

Meanwhile neighboring France, with its 70%+ energy generated from nuclear, generates about half as much CO2 per capita as Germany. Right now, and in the foreseeable future.

Re: Japan Turns to Coal After Closing Nuclear Power Plants

#44

Fukushima reactor design was terrible. Like legit bad. I wonder if open source nuclear power plants plans are the future.

I'm a big advocate of open source but if a nuclear reactor based on an open-source project would be opened close to me, I'd pack up and move as far as I could.

> I'm a big advocate of open source but if a nuclear reactor based on an open-source project would be opened close to me, I'd pack up and move as far as I could.

I'm also a big Open Source proponent, but that is such an absurd claim; first, where the hell are you going to get enriched Uranium to do any of the testing?

I'm pretty sure even in the depths of DNMs any such listings are a honey pot for Interpol or CIA/FBI or something.

The US sends other Nations into abject poverty via sanctions for trying to have civil use of Nuclear Energy, you think they won't level your entire neighborhood if they even suspected anyone playing with a reactor?

Oddly enough, the NRC/NRA let decommissioned plants store used spent fuel in poorly made casks along the CA coast:

https://www.ocregister.com/2019/07/06/the-safe-transfer-of-s...

Re: Japan Turns to Coal After Closing Nuclear Power Plants

#45
post #5

A disaster. I'm opposed to the construction of new nuclear plants (still open to possibility of new fusion plants at some in the future) but from an environmental standpoint it makes far more sense to maintain the existing nuclear plants - at least for now. The biggest drawbacks of nuclear power (expensive and slow plant construction) are off the table with existing plants! Hardening existing plants against possible…

This argument causes some of the problems this argument tries to avoid.

> I'm opposed to the construction of new nuclear plants

The technology involved in nuclear plants has evolved tremendously, both in terms of efficiency and in terms of safety, but the technology of the new generation is fundamentally different.

> The biggest drawbacks of nuclear power (expensive and slow plant construction) are off the table with existing plants!

Old plants use outdated designs. Nobody would tolerate the 1972 Internet infrastructure nowadays, and yet Chernobyl was created that year, and is still in use.

The main reason old plants stick around instead of being replaced is that Greenpeace and Green parties influence each other into lobbying against building correct reactors.

Take Superphénix: a French Gen IV reactor started construction twelve years before the Chernobyl accident. Its design is still considered next-gen and highly favorable today.

Activists literally fired rocket-propelled grenades at it while it was being built. It got so bad that they had to shut it down.

They tried building a similar Gen IV reactor recently, ASTRID, that improved tremendously even compared to the advanced Superphénix, and it got cancelled six months ago because of lobbies.

So all that remains are old plants… designs that were essentially initial drafts meant to be replaced by better technology, but that never gets shut down because every replacement gets lobbied against.

Those old designs have awful properties, so yeah, we get Chernobyl and Fukushima. We would have had neither if people had let replace the oldest generation. But because of Greenpeace, people died, and fear rose, when all this was unnecessary.

Re: Japan Turns to Coal After Closing Nuclear Power Plants

#46
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also the fact that no country on Earth can truly guarantee they can properly store the waste for the timelines required.

A common argument used to be that at least the amount of uranium is finite, so we can simply plan where to put it. Another interesting aspect is that we only have a few centuries of nuclear power left at current reserve and consumption rates. Uranium is absolutely a non renewable fuel. This could change with breeder reactors or the various fancy things being researched, but I think there is a public perception that u…

TerraPower claims that their Traveling Wave Reactor could "sustain 80% of the world's population at U.S. per capita energy usages for over a millennium" by using the global stockpiles of depleted uranium [1]. The other upside would be that the new nuclear waste would be dangerously radioactive for a much shorter time.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveling_wave_reactor

Re: Japan Turns to Coal After Closing Nuclear Power Plants

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd much rather be involved in a hydro-electric disaster than a nuclear one though...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banqiao_Dam Suddenly, Chernobyl doesn't sound that bad anymore.

When you consider that the elephant’s foot nearly contaminated the water table, it sort of does.

Re: Japan Turns to Coal After Closing Nuclear Power Plants

#48
post #27
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... And to Russian natural gas. [1] For every MW of nuclear that was turned down, a MW of natgas was turned up. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany#/media/File:...

Renewables 2019: 46% Renewables 2000: 6% Coal + Gas 2019 40% Coal + Gas 2000 59% Fact: Germany reduced fossil fuels coal+gas and increased renewables massively. Gas itself has increased.

The graph shows 36% coal and 13% natural gas for 2016, meaning coal and gas for 2016 is 49%.

There is the question of what this would look like if they didn't shut off their nuclear plants. It's my expectation that the nuclear would have replaced coal and natural gas.

EDIT: Changed incorrect 2019 reference to 2016.

Re: Japan Turns to Coal After Closing Nuclear Power Plants

#49
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No energy source is 100% safe. People die when working on windmills and hydroelectric disasters are way more deadly than nuclear disasters. I think 100% safe is an unreasonable requirement.

if a windmill falls/explodes, the area wouldn't be unliveable and contaminated for centuries...

If a dam fails the area below it can be unlivable for quite some time.

Re: Japan Turns to Coal After Closing Nuclear Power Plants

#50
post #17
post #6

Same thing happened in Germany. This is a really hard problem. I consider myself pretty pro-nuclear but it can never be 100% safe. I can't blame Japan for wanting out after Fukushima, but at the same time there has to be some kind of approach that balances short-term safety against the long-term consequences of carbonization.

No energy source is 100% safe. People die when working on windmills and hydroelectric disasters are way more deadly than nuclear disasters. I think 100% safe is an unreasonable requirement.

Coal pollution kills more people per day globally[1] than all nuclear disasters combined[2] ever have. Pollution kills between 7500 and 52000 annually just in USA. The range is wide because it's hard to measure.

That's 20/day dead from pollution just in USA.

Nuclear disasters are verified at about 2400 deaths over 41 years. Around 1/week.

Yeah ... crazy hard to make a safe energy source.

1: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-other-reason-...

2:

0 deaths for 3 Mile Island https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_Nuclear_Gene...

142 deaths for chernobyl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

2203 deaths for Fukushima (2202 of which were due to the evacuation itself) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disa...

PS: the "more per day than nuclear ever" bit comes from The Uninhabitable Earth: Life After Warming by David Wallace

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