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Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

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Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#381
Be careful about self-diagnosis. Everyone has narcissistic traits, and everyone has personality glitches. You're probably not a narcissist because you worry you are one -- actual narcissists just think they're great all the time.

But yes, learning to be more considerate and focused on others is worthwhile. The easiest and most immediate solution to what you're dealing with is to put more energy into focusing on others -- approach conversations as an attempt to understand where other people are coming from.

Just that simple fix will make you less focused on yourself.

Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#382

Seeing a therapist might be infinitely better than reading a book, and not just for narcissism. We're all broken in our own wonderful and unique ways. I've been seeing a therapist for 5 years now, and the positive impact this has had in my life and on my general self-awareness can't be overstated. As engineers and tech people we have one tool that has proven incredible useful in our careers: our brilliant rational mi…

Honest question, really trying hard not to word it in a standoffish way: what do you get out of a therapist that can't be obtained from thought or general conversation outside of therapy? I don't think a "brilliant rational mind" is a prerequisite for coming to the conclusion that you're spending money to lock someone in conversation with you - someone that would not associate with you otherwise. To me, the relations…

The point of therapy is not to teach you, but to heal you.

The problem is we all carry around a lot of subterranean shame, fear and guilt, and your mind has a way of blinding you too it because those feelings are too intense to handle on a day-to-day basis. As a result, we all have blind spots and dysfunctional habits that we will defend at all costs. Haven't you met brilliant, highly rational people that keep acting stupid over and over again because they refuse to acknowledge their own problems?

We're all a little broken for emotional reasons, not rational reasons. Everyone knows they shouldn't smoke, and drink too much, and spend too much. But lots of people have problems with that, because it's not about a lack of knowledge.

A therapist, over time, gets you to open up, accepts you, and thus shines light on those dark places. When you accept them instead of reflexively rejecting them, you can actually see yourself with more clarity and thus behave more rationally.

So yes, you could learn whatever a therapist could teach you from reading books. But the benefit of a therapist is the relationship. You could also go through the same process with a good friend, but most people are bad at listening and being accepting, especially when you're sharing your deepest secrets. And sadly, most people don't seem to have the time. Haven't you ever tried to share something with a friend, but then they say something judgmental and you never show them that again? A therapist is trained not to do that.

Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#383
post #120

I wonder if improv classes might help? I've been taking improv recently and I've found it to be extremely interesting from the POV of learning to pay more attention to other people. The core to learning improv is learning how NOT to be the center of attention. Everything is about supporting your team-mates: you have to pay extremely close attention to what they are doing and look for ways to give them further opportu…

Funnily enough, back when I was doing improv at school/university, I've found a great portion of the people there to be among the most self-absorbed people I've ever met. A lot of them were genuinely funny people, but there was a lot of ego, tribalism, people wanting to be stars, etc etc. It was actually one of the reasons why I got scared out of continuing in a local league after graduation, even if I'd done it for…

Same happened to me. I was deeply involved in the local improv community for a few years, and it was great at first, but a few toxic people drove me away for good.

My theory is it is a gathering place for people with narcissistic traits -- I mean, part of the appeal is being the center of attention and having everyone think you're brilliant and hilarious.

(Again, though, we all have narcissistic traits, but few of us are actually full-on narcissists.)

Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAN, but living abroad when I was about 25 really improved my humility. I'm used to being quick-witted, knowledgable, and generally good with people. When I got to a place where English is not the default language, I was essentially an idiot---I was confused a lot, unable to make jokes, and little kids laughed at my attempts to, say, order a gyro. It all clicked when I was lamenting it to my girlfriend, who said (w…

On the contrary, I sort of dislike how normalized being quiet and keeping thoughts to yourself has become IRL. I find solace in cracking somewhat absurd jokes and being somewhat absurd. That's what I have to do to make it through the day. If that makes me bad with some people, then maybe that's their problem. I think the most important thing I never realized is that not everyone will like you, and it is a complete wa…

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not afraid to let my freak flag fly. I just realized that I wasn't leaving a lot of space for other people in group conversations.

Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#385
What Life Should Mean To You by Alfred Adler. Originally published in 1931, the book’s style of writing is refreshingly straightforward and lucid. Modern publications changed the word “should” to “could” because apparently you aren’t allowed to talk like that anymore. But it’s a transformative book on narcissistic behaviour, a real foundation for psychology.

Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#386
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People say this a lot, but it never seems very actionable. How do you do find someone good that you trust? How do you find someone worth the time? The couple of times I've tried to find someone you end up making a lot of unreturned phone calls. Maybe I have an unfairly negative impression of therapists - I both think that it's incredibly valuable to introspect and have someone smart and thoughtful to work things out…

> How do you do find someone good that you trust? How do you find someone worth the time? The couple of times I've tried to find someone you end up making a lot of unreturned phone calls. But it's the same with Doctors. Some doctors won't listen to your symptoms, some doctors might have old information, or brush you off. Would you put off going to a doctor because of those problems?

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Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#387
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As engineers and tech people we have one tool that has proven incredible useful in our careers: our brilliant rational minds. So we tend to think that we can solve any problem in life with this tool. thinking that therapy is somehow beneath us is pure hubris. To add to this: we also tend to think we can correctly assess any problem without external help, but especially when it comes to the "self" this fails. It's k…

That had been my excuse for ignoring my own problems for years so I’d add: If you think you’re insane but also thinking it could be self-mis-diagnosis, no, you are not sane. There is no such inherent contradiction in an ability for a logical system to detect its own anomaly were you one. If it had been a false positive, the fact that a false positive is occurring itself is an anomaly, and an issue.

Can you elaborate on this? This reads okay but it's at a higher level of abstraction and I don't know the specific phenomena to which it's referring.

Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#388
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think they're a waste of money. This is a valid opinion, but it would be better presented with some evidence to support it. When someone says "A therapist really helped me." then their opinion carries its own evidence. They are a living evidential proof of their claim. (At least, to the degree that you accept that the commenter is honest and able to correctly measure their own quality of life.) But when you say "…

>When someone says "A therapist really helped me." then their opinion carries its own evidence. that's only true for individuals which you do not believe to be affected by choice-supportive bias[0], which is , more-or-less, non-existent as far as humanity is concerned. If someone buys therapy, and they feel as if their quality of life has been improved by the purchase, great, but that's not a quantifiable justificati…

If the goal of therapy is a subjective increase in quality of life, then whether it comes from bias or objective change doesn't really matter. If the happy pills make you happy, it's sort of an implementation detail as to whether or not they are actually just a placebo. Perception is reality when the goal itself is subjective.

Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#389
post #283

Honestly, having kids fixed my personality in a thousand significant ways. I was never a raging cerebral narcissist, but I had patterns of responses to situations which were incredibly self-centered. My children didn't change my perspective, that would be too convenient and easy. Having children just gave me more outlets to be the caring, nurturing person that I wanted to be deep down. I enjoy expressing my personali…

I'm glad that's working for you, but for anyone else reading, if you think you have some sort of uncontrolled pathological narcissism, please do not have children . A majority of the people I know who have mental health issues as adult are in that situation at least in part due to narcissistic abuse by their parents. /r/raisedbynarcissists/ has over half a million subscribers for a reason. If you want to have kids, g…

"I'm glad that's working for you, but for anyone else reading, if you think you have some sort of uncontrolled pathological narcissism, please do not have children." Thank you. This is a wonderful, pitch-perfect example of the type of insanely arrogant thing I would have posted in a forum before I had kids.

Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#390
post #309
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding of the history is that Christianity took a free ride on a freight train caused by other things that in turn were not helped by Christianity. For example the early history of science shows that science took off exactly where and when conflict between different Christian sects left no religious authority with sufficient power to stop people from exploring dangerous ideas. And to the tired old argument…

Those are certainly interesting claims! There are a number of arguments that science came about in western culture because of Christian belief in an intelligible and orderly creator, at odds with the other philosophies of that time (and arguably our own). I've also heard that the original invention of capitalism came about within the monastic university system that generated our modern university. Jesus does disparag…

Those are certainly interesting claims!

I believe that they are true ones.

There are a number of arguments that science came about in western culture because of Christian belief in an intelligible and orderly creator, at odds with the other philosophies of that time (and arguably our own).

I have read _Meditations_ by Marcus Aurelius. It is obvious that the idea of an intelligible and orderly creator is very much part of the pagan tradition that he is from, which predates and is not of Christian origin.

Furthermore the intellectual roots of empirical science are in ancient Greece. And when it flourished again starting in the 1600s, religious communities (famously including what happened to Galileo) suppressed the dangerous new line of inquiry. Christianity does not seem to have been of assistance.

I've also heard that the original invention of capitalism came about within the monastic university system that generated our modern university.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism#Origins_... lists many theories about the origin of capitalism. The idea that it was invented in monastaries is notably absent.

Jesus does disparage seeking after material wealth, and the early church held all possessions in common to help the needy among them. But, he also tells the parable of the talents, which encourages people to make the most of what they have, and the one guy who doesn't is punished. So, I would say Jesus is anti-greed, not anti-capitalism. The apostle Paul goes onto say those who don't work should not eat, and that hardworking pastors should be financially rewarded.

And are these attitudes part of our culture?

Jesus' golden rule is part of the beatitudes, which I understand to be unique among moral teachings. Foundational is the idea that all humans are created in the image of God, and should be loved accordingly. My understanding is chattel slavery came about after the enlightenment, perhaps due to the elimination of belief that all humans are created in the image of God. Instead we have the Darwinian view that humans form a continuum with animals, and thus implying humans can be treated like animals.

If that is your understanding, then you truly do not know the history. Chattel slavery existed from ancient times. Tying chattel slavery to race was religiously justified by the claim that blacks were descended from Caine and therefore cursed and inferior. The development of the Darwinian view of evolution happened in the same general time frame as the ABOLISHMENT of slavery, not its increase.

Compare. England abolished most slavery in 1833. The Origin of the Species was written in 1859. Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was 1863. Its actual adoption took place not many years after.

The view that humans form a continuum with animals coincided with a more humane treatment of humans, not less.

An amusing legal note supports this. Read the case of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Ellen_Wilson to find that the principle that we should not let children be too badly mistreated by their parents was first enforced in the USA using laws that were intended to prevent undue cruelty to animals. This is a literal case where treating humans as animals lead to humans being treated better!

I do believe the relationship between Christianity and western culture is more than you propose. If you want some interesting secular books to read on the topic, check out anything by Rodney Stark.

I have a counterproposal. Why don't you read https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1185/1185-h/1185-h.htm instead?

And take seriously one of its opening points, namely, "The antagonism we thus witness between Religion and Science is the continuation of a struggle that commenced when Christianity began to attain political power. A divine revelation must necessarily be intolerant of contradiction; it must repudiate all improvement in itself, and view with disdain that arising from the progressive intellectual development of man. But our opinions on every subject are continually liable to modification, from the irresistible advance of human knowledge."

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