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On Resigning from Google

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Re: On Resigning from Google

#181

Post by cbanek »

ci5er wrote: post #170
cbanek wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LGBTQ people were treated well, and in no way discriminated against, or at least in a visible way at least.... As a minority LGBTQ person, let me say it's almost never in a visible way, but trust me, it is there. It's usually called something different, or dressed up as something else, just like how it is treated in political discourse. The fact that it's not obvious only makes it worse and more unnerving for the g…

As a sometimes engineering manager (I generally prefer to be a staffy, you know, doing analyst functions for the CEO, etc.), this is interesting to me. Can you give me any ideas on what I should be on the look-out for, in terms of behavior, among the team-mates? I "get" that it's not visible (sort of), but I don't get how to be on guard for it, prevent it or deal with it if we can't see it. How does a manager see the…

Yeah, it's tricky to see for sure. I don't pretend to have all or even some of the answers here, but since you asked, and it's a great question, I'll take a stab at it.

First, I'd just make sure that people are happy. If people are honestly happy and enjoying their job, they probably aren't having a problem. Talk to them and figure it out is the most direct way. Indirect ways I would say include:

Social dynamics: Does a team try to exclude a person from meetings, social discussions at work, social activities, etc? Is one person always alone? This is a bit fuzzier since it's about association, and you can't force people to be friends, but it can show a lot about team cohesion.

Work dynamics: I've worked with people who I was almost sure had it out for me, and they would purposefully drag their feet doing work or responding to issues. While this should reflect poorly on the person sandbagging, it's more common that the recipient is blamed for "not getting enough done." Especially with ramping up or helping out, by excluding certain members of the team, coworkers can basically set that person up to fail, while technically doing nothing wrong.

Reviews: Also look out for when people are punished or otherwise told they aren't doing good enough. The measuring stick for this can change based on the person being measured.

Opportunity. Are minority team members given the same opportunities for leadership and growth? Or does a team always give the best work to one or two people that the boss likes, leaving everyone else to clean up the mess? It's hard to prove that you can do the job if they won't let you. This seems to happen a lot in my experience.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#182

Post by supernova87a »

I question how much an employee should concern him/herself with how a product is used once it's created. You have to let certain control go after a point. Or if your product is open to everyone, you'll have to live with the fact that people may use it in ways you disagree with.

Xerox or Canon (or whoever) probably makes copiers that these "bad" companies use to make copies. Lenovo or Apple probably makes hardware that they use also to further their functions. Ford/GM probably supply them with vehicles. Farmers grow crops that get into the the meals that their personnel eat. Pilots and flight attendants probably have knowingly transported their employees.

Why don't the employees at all these other companies object like Google employees? Why do Google employees get a special right to withhold consent for their product to be used in a setting they might object to? Why is oil/gas the sector that they object to? Why do some causes get their favor and not others?

I get tired of people picking and choosing their annual causes to be outraged about. And the LGBT part of the manifesto is ridiculous.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#183

Post by viklove »

veeralpatel979 wrote: post #51

The solution to climate change is not to make energy producers like oil and gas companies go out of business. The way these companies became so successful was by providing something of value at a low cost. Do you really want to pay substantially more for heating/cool, gas, and almost every good? Instead, the Tesla model is the way to go. Build products that are 10x better than their fossil fuel reliant competitors. T…

> The solution to climate change is not to make energy producers like oil and gas companies go out of business.

It absolutely is... Or at least make them change into non-oil and non-gas companies.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#184

Post by swivelmaster »

paxys wrote: post #83
baddox wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider what happens if everyone who has a moral complaint about their employer immediately quits rather than staying around and attempting to chase the complaint up the management hierarchy and/or educate and organize other employees to voice the complaint. I think utilizing one's power as a worker and aligning other workers to increase workers' power is far from hypocritical. It's a great way (perhaps the only rel…

> Consider what happens if everyone who has a moral complaint about their employer immediately quits This is in fact the quickest way to ensure that this behavior immediately stops

Or you end up just leaving behind all the people who don't really care about it, and thus it is never fixed.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#185

Post by [deleted] »

paxys wrote: post #83
baddox wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider what happens if everyone who has a moral complaint about their employer immediately quits rather than staying around and attempting to chase the complaint up the management hierarchy and/or educate and organize other employees to voice the complaint. I think utilizing one's power as a worker and aligning other workers to increase workers' power is far from hypocritical. It's a great way (perhaps the only rel…

> Consider what happens if everyone who has a moral complaint about their employer immediately quits This is in fact the quickest way to ensure that this behavior immediately stops

[deleted]

Re: On Resigning from Google

#186

Post by xtacy »

wrs wrote: post #144

“Oil and gas companies use cloud computing so I’m not going to work on cloud computing” doesn’t seem much more valid to me than “child pornographers use encryption so I’m not going to work on encryption”. It’s a technology that exists, and people will use it to further their goals no matter what you personally do. There is a simple, well-established way for society to discourage certain activities without damaging th…

The analogy is a bit extreme, don't you think so? Isn't there a difference between developing a technology and actively taking part in selling it for a use-case that you disagree with?

Re: On Resigning from Google

#187

Post by CydeWeys »

privateSFacct wrote: post #153
CydeWeys wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please - quit your overpaid tech job and actually work to change the status quo. No one is saying you have to accept the status quo. False dichotomy. You don't need to quit your job to work to change the status quo. Indeed, you can often effect change much better from inside an important organization than from outside it.

Please - cash your big checks built on the back of misery and then complain to the company about their violent attacks on your "physical security". You don't need to change your job - but if you are getting paid very well to do a job, then posting long internet postings about how terrible it is to work at an "important organization" risks getting you some eye-rolls.

You're attacking a strawman. The people trying to effect change aren't merely complaining online. There has been substantial real organizing afoot.

Re: On Resigning from Google

#188

Post by chrshawkes »

aaomidi wrote: post #110
skynetv2 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you made their point yourself Go change the guidelines. No need to tell anyone anything at that point.

And that's what posts like this are slowly doing. Changing public opinion towards our way of life.

Are you sure about that?

Re: On Resigning from Google

#189

Post by [deleted] »

cbanek wrote: post #97
ardit33 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about google, and can't say about direct experience, but almost every tech company I have worked, LGBTQ people were treated well, and in no way discriminated against, or at least in a visible way at least.... even amazon, was pretty equal about minorities and LGBTQ folks as they treated everyone equally crap....

> LGBTQ people were treated well, and in no way discriminated against, or at least in a visible way at least.... As a minority LGBTQ person, let me say it's almost never in a visible way, but trust me, it is there. It's usually called something different, or dressed up as something else, just like how it is treated in political discourse. The fact that it's not obvious only makes it worse and more unnerving for the g…

[deleted]

Re: On Resigning from Google

#190

Post by knowa42 »

shadowgovt wrote: post #14
commandlinefan wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google (and, really, all of Northern California) has been actively courting these high-minded idealists for a long time. The problem with these types of people is that they invent windmills to tilt at when they run out.

The problem with these types of people is that they actually care about more than the paycheck. ;)

Didn't seem to care about more than a paycheck until they'd collected a big one for 15 years. Idealism is easy when there's no risk involved.
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