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Does Visual Studio Rot the Mind? (2005)

charlespetzold.com

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Re: Does Visual Studio Rot the Mind? (2005)

#21

Post by apetresc »

ivansavz wrote: post #19

Anecdote from this week: I've been working on a Python project that uses several classes and subclasses, with code paths that move around a lot through the class hierarchy. I was trying to add some functionality but kept getting bogged down trying to make sure all the subclasses implement the same interface, using Atom as the text editor. Then I installed PyCharm and completed the task in just a few hours thanks to t…

You definitely don't need to go to a full IDE just to get find-definition and find-references. Those are basic features of any ctags-enabled editor, and nowadays with the momentum behind LSPs you get carrier-grade versions of it without even needing to generate a tag file. (In fact, Neovim's next version will actually ship with an LSP client, you won't even need an extension for it).

I just bind 'gd' and 'gr' to go to definitions and references, respectively, and I'm good to go in vim.

Re: Does Visual Studio Rot the Mind? (2005)

#23

Post by bordercases »

apetresc wrote: post #21
ivansavz wrote: post #19

Anecdote from this week: I've been working on a Python project that uses several classes and subclasses, with code paths that move around a lot through the class hierarchy. I was trying to add some functionality but kept getting bogged down trying to make sure all the subclasses implement the same interface, using Atom as the text editor. Then I installed PyCharm and completed the task in just a few hours thanks to t…

You definitely don't need to go to a full IDE just to get find-definition and find-references. Those are basic features of any ctags-enabled editor, and nowadays with the momentum behind LSPs you get carrier-grade versions of it without even needing to generate a tag file. (In fact, Neovim's next version will actually ship with an LSP client, you won't even need an extension for it). I just bind 'gd' and 'gr' to go t…

Very popular LSPs actually have poor support for basic definition/reference jumping.

`javascript-typescript-language-server` sticks out to me as my first disappointment. And the only implementation of a vue language server is no better, where tls would just throw errors for mixing HTML templates with scripts even if it handles the Javascript properly.

Re: Does Visual Studio Rot the Mind? (2005)

#24

Post by bobbylarrybobby »

ivansavz wrote: post #19

Anecdote from this week: I've been working on a Python project that uses several classes and subclasses, with code paths that move around a lot through the class hierarchy. I was trying to add some functionality but kept getting bogged down trying to make sure all the subclasses implement the same interface, using Atom as the text editor. Then I installed PyCharm and completed the task in just a few hours thanks to t…

I think visual studio code strikes the right balance between performance and functionality

Re: Does Visual Studio Rot the Mind? (2005)

#26

Post by Barrin92 »

bobbylarrybobby wrote: post #24
ivansavz wrote: post #19

Anecdote from this week: I've been working on a Python project that uses several classes and subclasses, with code paths that move around a lot through the class hierarchy. I was trying to add some functionality but kept getting bogged down trying to make sure all the subclasses implement the same interface, using Atom as the text editor. Then I installed PyCharm and completed the task in just a few hours thanks to t…

I think visual studio code strikes the right balance between performance and functionality

as a very loyal long term emacs user I have to agree. I find myself using vscode more and more just to how more pleasant refactoring and debugging python code is.

Re: Does Visual Studio Rot the Mind? (2005)

#27

Post by flukus »

ivansavz wrote: post #19

Anecdote from this week: I've been working on a Python project that uses several classes and subclasses, with code paths that move around a lot through the class hierarchy. I was trying to add some functionality but kept getting bogged down trying to make sure all the subclasses implement the same interface, using Atom as the text editor. Then I installed PyCharm and completed the task in just a few hours thanks to t…

> ses several classes and subclasses, with code paths that move around a lot through the class hierarchy

The flip side I see more often than not (no idea if it applies here) is that IDE's are the enabler that allow such terrible code where less tooling would force a much simpler and more readable design. The more tooling you need to navigate a codebase the less readable it is. The reason "you need an IDE for java" is so prevalent isn't so much because of the language but because of the "enterprisy" OO code the ecosystem is famous for.

IDE's can certainly help, especially once projects reach a certain size, but reliance on them is an indicator of greater problems.

Re: Does Visual Studio Rot the Mind? (2005)

#28

Post by closeparen »

flukus wrote: post #27
ivansavz wrote: post #19

Anecdote from this week: I've been working on a Python project that uses several classes and subclasses, with code paths that move around a lot through the class hierarchy. I was trying to add some functionality but kept getting bogged down trying to make sure all the subclasses implement the same interface, using Atom as the text editor. Then I installed PyCharm and completed the task in just a few hours thanks to t…

> ses several classes and subclasses, with code paths that move around a lot through the class hierarchy The flip side I see more often than not (no idea if it applies here) is that IDE's are the enabler that allow such terrible code where less tooling would force a much simpler and more readable design. The more tooling you need to navigate a codebase the less readable it is. The reason "you need an IDE for java" is…

Codebases get unwieldy because lots of people make small, individually reasonable changes to them over years, and it adds up.

I don’t need an IDE to add another invocation of the method. I need an IDE when the signature has to change.

Re: Does Visual Studio Rot the Mind? (2005)

#29

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

bordercases wrote: post #23
apetresc wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You definitely don't need to go to a full IDE just to get find-definition and find-references. Those are basic features of any ctags-enabled editor, and nowadays with the momentum behind LSPs you get carrier-grade versions of it without even needing to generate a tag file. (In fact, Neovim's next version will actually ship with an LSP client, you won't even need an extension for it). I just bind 'gd' and 'gr' to go t…

Very popular LSPs actually have poor support for basic definition/reference jumping. `javascript-typescript-language-server` sticks out to me as my first disappointment. And the only implementation of a vue language server is no better, where tls would just throw errors for mixing HTML templates with scripts even if it handles the Javascript properly.

Whichever language server the tide package uses in emacs has excellent jump to definition abilities.

Re: Does Visual Studio Rot the Mind? (2005)

#30

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

closeparen wrote: post #28
flukus wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ses several classes and subclasses, with code paths that move around a lot through the class hierarchy The flip side I see more often than not (no idea if it applies here) is that IDE's are the enabler that allow such terrible code where less tooling would force a much simpler and more readable design. The more tooling you need to navigate a codebase the less readable it is. The reason "you need an IDE for java" is…

Codebases get unwieldy because lots of people make small, individually reasonable changes to them over years, and it adds up. I don’t need an IDE to add another invocation of the method. I need an IDE when the signature has to change.

You don’t need an ide, you need a list of potentially affected lines.
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