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Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

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Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#131

> I tend to talk too much about myself, I don't enjoy listening to other people, I tend to judge situations only from my perspective, I have an inflated ego and take things too personal. Isn't that 95% of us?

If there were ten attributes that particularly define a narcissist (wide disagreement on that, so I'm just using an example number), I think most people would have four or five of them by default of humans by nature being normally self-interested.

The narcissist will have a few more critically elevated attributes that are missing or quite weak in your average person: lacking in empathy and caring thoughts of others (narcissists feel like users when you're around them, they use people as tools for how they can feed their narcissism); very aggressive inability to recognize their own wrongs (they'll do everything to avoid this); methodically blaming everyone/everything else for things that go wrong (goes with the last one as a requirement); extreme and sharp turns against others in cases of being blamed or having mistakes & flaws pointed out (even casually; this can't be tolerated, it opens up a personality collapse risk); often a very elevated obsession with image, how they're perceived (often including beauty, but not required); you'll usually see elevated levels of lying and manipulation, often related to maintaining the other items such as image and or getting what the person wants/needs to maintain the ecosystem of narcissism (it's a whole system that has all sorts of requirements, each of which cause other consequences); they will believe they're very, very special, with typically little in the way of supporting life results to back that up (it's an inherent impossibility, as the inflation of image is always far beyond the results, no matter what the results are; and they will have excuses to cover the lack of obvious supporting results, calling themselves lazy for example, for why they've accomplished nothing, while simultaneously proclaiming they could conquer the world if they wanted to).

Maintaining narcissism is its own form of hell for most narcissists. It's a never-ending treadmill of lies, deception, abuse, losing friends, self-torture, unhappiness. They will often not understand why they're so miserable, they offload that on others via blame as well.

True narcissism almost feels like dealing with a sociopath when you're near it. Like you're dealing with a robot or alien.

Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#133

Can someone provide a definition of "narcissism" as it's being used here? Is there a list of core attributes or traits that comprise it? Etiology? I've seen many discussions of this across the internet, and while there are many people who seem to know what it is, or know people who are "narcissists" or have a personality disorder, I've never seen it exhaustively described. Most comments take a form like "A narcissist…

This is more or less the DSM definition: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-...

Thank you!

Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#134
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are examples of problems you couldn't solve with your mind?

Any that involves interaction with multiple people; you cannot predict others, especially since most people don't always act fully rationally.

I think people say that others dont act rationally, when really they just don't understand the other person's goals and how their behaviour contributes to their goals.

If i pass up $100 to get a burger, am i acting irrationally? It depends if i'm hungry. It depends how much $100 means to me (Am i bill gates?). Its impossible to say from the outside. I'm convinced much behaviour is basically the same except much more complex with multiple conflicting priorities.

Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#135
At its core, narcissism is a defence mechanism [1] against a state of mind of which you are afraid.

To get over your narcissism, you can grow your emotional strength until you are ready to face your biggest, unknown-to-you fear, until you are ready to be in the state of mind that you avoid. Right now, your mind does everything to hide that state of mind from your awareness.

There are plenty of ways to grow your emotional strength. Meditation, being compassionate, express yourself e.g. with singing or dancing, ...

Trust yourself. Deep down you know what you have to do.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanism

Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#136
IMO, you're looking at the wrong symptoms.

What you're describing is just being inconsiderate and I'd imagine that you're probably young. Simply paying attention to those bad behaviors is a good start on addressing them. Attempting to be kind, curious, and attentive is a strong strategy. I mean, on some level, that behavior selfish and "narcissistic", but it's not a personality disorder. IME it's not what people are talking about when they are talking about "narcissism".

As to NPD...

You might look at how well you respond to criticism, and what kinds of criticisms cause you to become upset.

The reason that you "couldn't find any book for people who are narcissistic themselves and want to fix that" is that NPD is an issue where people have a fragile sense of who they are so they develop a lot of strategies for not having to encounter personal criticisms; by definition they aren't looking for those kinds of books. Any suggestion that change is necessary is something that feels harmful.

Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#137

Seeing a therapist might be infinitely better than reading a book, and not just for narcissism. We're all broken in our own wonderful and unique ways. I've been seeing a therapist for 5 years now, and the positive impact this has had in my life and on my general self-awareness can't be overstated. As engineers and tech people we have one tool that has proven incredible useful in our careers: our brilliant rational mi…

People say this a lot, but it never seems very actionable. How do you do find someone good that you trust? How do you find someone worth the time? The couple of times I've tried to find someone you end up making a lot of unreturned phone calls. Maybe I have an unfairly negative impression of therapists - I both think that it's incredibly valuable to introspect and have someone smart and thoughtful to work things out…

I'm actually attending therapy, on a regular schedule, and struggled to find a good therapist.

Shop around? You're inviting someone to perform online brain surgery on you. Fortunately, you can undo the operation if you don't like it (sort of). If you don't like what the therapist is doing, keep looking for a different therapist that works for you.

I've heard a story where a therapist got upset with their client because the client said, during a therapy session, they were going to find someone else.

Simple point of order: I don't need to tell my therapist if they're fired. I just walk away.

Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#138

I'm not entirely convinced narcissism is something that has to be fixed. There are some aspects to it that are of course destructive as you mentioned (not enjoying listening to other people, and taking things to personally). Fixing these things I think comes down to enjoying the people you spend time with, and a radical belief that things will work out no matter what happens. But there are other aspects of narcissism…

> I'm not entirely convinced narcissism is something that has to be fixed.

You sound kinda like a narcissist. And the problem with overconfidence/big ego is that it doesn't help you choose the best big challenges to tackle. Having some humility and keeping things in perspective makes you all the more aware of what your real strengths are, and how to best leverage them.

Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#139

Seeing a therapist might be infinitely better than reading a book, and not just for narcissism. We're all broken in our own wonderful and unique ways. I've been seeing a therapist for 5 years now, and the positive impact this has had in my life and on my general self-awareness can't be overstated. As engineers and tech people we have one tool that has proven incredible useful in our careers: our brilliant rational mi…

Honest question, really trying hard not to word it in a standoffish way: what do you get out of a therapist that can't be obtained from thought or general conversation outside of therapy? I don't think a "brilliant rational mind" is a prerequisite for coming to the conclusion that you're spending money to lock someone in conversation with you - someone that would not associate with you otherwise. To me, the relations…

A therapist can confront you as a human being in way that no book, friend, or family member ever can. There are often truths about being human that one has difficulty accepting on the basis of logic. A trained human being can find a way to make those truths acceptable.

Re: Ask HN: How did you fix your narcissism?

#140
I loved this line from Eric Weinstein's conversation with Garrett Lisi: "A good scientist is engaged in a dialectic between arrogance and humility." A dash of narcissism can be good, when contextually appropriate, and kept in balance.

To that end, cultivate micro-habits, and pay attention to your emotional responses. Whenever I feel a sting to my ego, publicly or privately, I now try to embrace it, "take it on the chin", to be grateful for the lesson, to explicitly choose to let someone else (or the Universe) win. It's difficult at first, but it gets easier.

It's taken a long time to truly appreciate the line from Desiderata: "Listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story". Think of it as a matter of interpersonal respect first, and "correctness" second. The human always has their reasons, right or wrong; when they feel respected and heard, they're much more likely to be receptive to new information or another point of view.

My secret meta-hack? Using narcissism to curb narcissism. From the Tao Te Ching: "All streams flow to the sea because it is lower than they are. Humility gives it its power. If you want to govern the people, you must place yourself below them. If you want to lead the people, you must learn how to follow them."

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