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Open-plan offices decrease face-to-face collaboration: study

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Re: Open-plan offices decrease face-to-face collaboration: study

#361

Post by mirimir »

JohnFen wrote: post #174
BoorishBears wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what, if I'm going to be downvoted for an opinion, it should at least earn it: Too bad open offices are here to stay, if you were worth it you could get an office, maybe invest in some good headphones :)

> a huge part of craft is communication, and open offices are great for that. But they aren't great for that. For most people, they're the opposite. That's the point the article is making, and the article agrees with what I've personally observed.

I've never worked in one, unless I count schoolrooms.

But I can imagine that I'd be so jumpy and angry that I'd refuse to talk with anyone. And that I'd wear humongous headphones, and blast death metal or whatever.

Re: Open-plan offices decrease face-to-face collaboration: study

#362

Post by monkin »

It's interesting to see how studies like that change over time. I remember many from early 2000 saying that open-space are mind-changing and better for productivity.

Few examples: http://www.luchetti.com/links/cwe_neocon.pdf, https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/news/hr-magazine/pages/0902cov... or https://www.apa.org/monitor/may02/cubicle

I never cared about office design, until only I can see my screen. Just hate when people watch how I work, ask questions or giving unwanted advice.

Re: Open-plan offices decrease face-to-face collaboration: study

#363

Post by nkingsy »

lioeters wrote: post #294
switch007 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foucault wouldn't be surprised at all at the prevalence of open-plan offices.

The association of open-plan offices to the Panopticon: > ..The fact that the inmates cannot know when they are being watched means that they are motivated to act as though they are being watched at all times. Thus, the inmates are effectively compelled to regulate their own behaviour. > ..Foucault used the panopticon as metaphor for the modern disciplinary society in Discipline and Punish. > He argued that disciplin…

Orwell was way off. Our every movement is scrutinized even when it’s dark.

Re: Open-plan offices decrease face-to-face collaboration: study

#364

Post by tannerc »

rcthompson wrote: post #43
tannerc wrote: post #9

Not every solution will solve every problem for every person. Some people thrive in open environments, some don’t. Some people need accidental encounters to propel innovative change, some don’t. To say these types of cultures are “dumb” (or even the opposite) is akin saying “peanut butter is the worst possible thing you could ever eat!” just because you’re allergic to it.

The OP's point is that open plan offices don't even encourage things they claim to encourage, like those "accidental encounters" that may be helpful for some people. In an open-plan office, everyone ends up avoiding in-person interaction because of how distracting it can be to those around them.

A research paper with n = 2 (companies) isn't exactly representative.

Anecdotally, I've seen the complete opposite (where in-person interactions happen far more because of the open floor plan) at three large companies. So the point stands: open floor plans will not produce positive results for every organization, that's to be expected.

Re: Open-plan offices decrease face-to-face collaboration: study

#365

Post by Mountain_Skies »

ericwood wrote: post #152
mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Workplaces themselves are so egregiously one-sides in the other direction that these discussions have to be one-sided, because by definition it’s the huge, huge majority of people who find the existing actually workplaces to be one-sidesly disergonomic. You’re worried that the discussion is one-sides. I’m worried that physical workplaces are one-sided, today, for real, to such an extent that it’s deeply cognitively h…

I mean, clearly it's not working for a large chunk of people, otherwise this article wouldn't keep appearing on the front page of HN regularly. What I'm saying is there's a way to meet in the middle.

Is there? About the only thing I've seen suggested that might work is to offer everyone a choice but as another poster commented, the vast majority would choose an office over an open floorplan.

Group rooms, shared offices, etc., would be an acceptable compromise for some but far from all. These middle solutions still have the negatives of the open floorplan just on a smaller scale. If you prefer cola and I prefer water, watered down cola isn't going to make either of us very happy.

Re: Open-plan offices decrease face-to-face collaboration: study

#366

Post by overgard »

notduncansmith wrote: post #79

I work in an open office environment. I never thought I’d say this, but it works excellently; there’s always energy in the air, collaboration is easy, and it’s a great space to hold company all-hands meetings. I’d say there are 4 keys to making this work: 1) The founders have a great sense of aesthetic and our office is a beautiful space as a result (also stays very clean), meaning it stays less stressful and promote…

> 2) There are plenty of closed-room office spaces available if you need focus time

As a coder, the ratio is like 99% focus time and 1% socialising. If I were just to take an office everyday id be viewed as entitled even if its the most rational thing

> 4) There is Sonos in both open-office areas and people are pretty good about not hogging it or playing obnoxious/too-loud music

Just, why is there a Sonos in the first place!? I can't imagine being at work and wanting to hear someone's playlist.

Re: Open-plan offices decrease face-to-face collaboration: study

#367

Post by FanaHOVA »

chrisseaton wrote: post #188
praptak wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that Waterfall was never really advocated: https://davesquared.net/2008/01/contentious-myth-of-waterfal... It was conceived as a straw man which was being dissed so vigorously that people started believing it was real.

> Except that Waterfall was never really advocated I've heard countless people advocate for waterfall. I was formally taught waterfall years ago. It was how many people approached development for a long time, and how some people still approach it today. Here's just one concrete example I could find in seconds - an article from 2006 advocating for its benefits https://www.techrepublic.com/article/understanding-the-pro…

Still being taught in school; my CS program in Rome had it as one of the "software engineering methods" chapters, it was part of the finals curriculum and everything.

Re: Open-plan offices decrease face-to-face collaboration: study

#368

Post by alicorn »

mrkstu wrote: post #338
thawaway1837 wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren’t libraries usually open spaces? But they enforce strict silence. So you can go tap on anyone’s shoulder but if you want to have a conversation you need to head to a non working area. That sounds like the best idea to me. Open office plan, but no loud conversations are allowed. You need to maintain strict library like silences. However, you also provide enough breakout rooms or non quiet areas where people can h…

Which of course can never work in an office environment. Leave your desk for every Zoom/WebEx conference call? Whisper with the colleague who needs to talk to you for a minute about something? You're not going to decamp to a meeting area for all the daily grind stuff- so the open area is always going to be interruptingly loud.

We have unofficial office rules that work just like that. We do not have a sea of 50 people in the same space however, instead we have sort of isolated spaces that contain about 15-20 people each. All phone calls, chats longer than a minute or two ('I need to whiteboard this with you') and such are always done in small dedicated phone / meeting rooms on the sides of the open space. There is an adjacent coffee and food eating space shared by 3 such shared spaces, so about 40 people. It works well enough, almost everyone is mindful of sticking to the rules, since it benefits everybody to keep it that way.

Re: Open-plan offices decrease face-to-face collaboration: study

#369

Post by Apocryphon »

commandlinefan wrote: post #360
Apocryphon wrote: post #120

If workers rights or material concerns won’t inspire software engineers to consider organizing, perhaps day to day work “lifestyle” hassles like open offices will. It’s been often repeated that developers eschew organizing because one can always go and find a better paying job if they don’t like the work environment they’re in- but good luck trying to find a workplace that gives the average developer their own office…

I’m wishy-washy on organized labor, especially for software developers: I think that we’d see less unpaid overtime if there were some sort of collective bargaining going on. I seriously doubt that any labor organization would ever do anything (or even try to do anything) about open offices.

I think any motivation to get software engineers to think and act less like lone wolves would be a step towards in the right direction. At the very least, some sort of sw labor organization can voice their displeasure towards open offices in a united fashion.

Re: Open-plan offices decrease face-to-face collaboration: study

#370

Post by bradlys »

munificent wrote: post #163
bradlys wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I don't see this as a thing once you get to a certain size. It used to be a thing at my workplace when we were smaller. However, now, the place is just so loud with conversation/whatever on a daily basis that people are less bothered by individual conversations near them. It's like complaining about conversation next to you when you're in a cafeteria full of it already. Everyone wears headphones at my place…

> However, now, the place is just so loud with conversation/whatever on a daily basis that people are less bothered by individual conversations near them. I cannot adequately describe the horror this sentence induces in me.

Feel like it's pretty normal in SV - but, I don't like it either.

I haven't really been in a startup office that wasn't this way in quite a while. First startup I was at played music all the time - that wasn't great. Second place (not a startup) had engineers stationed next to sales people who had to be on the phone all the time at their desks. Third one - the sales folks were further away but everyone not in engineering was so loud that they gave those muffs out (lots of customer service reps sat near engineering too - lots of phone calls). And now I am at one where everyone is next to everyone even at a billion dollar company. Each person gets a 60"x30" desk (it might be smaller actually) and they shove 6-8 of them together in groups of 2x3 or 2x4. Then put them in really close proximity where you have about 12-18" between your chair at your desk and the person behind you. Not uncommon to run into the person behind you. This is for a company with over $100mil in funding. There's about 100 people in the office. It's not a very large office at all.

Most people just don't join the company if it's an issue - but I don't think anyone has cited that as an issue yet. Most people complain more about the terrible codebase or poor management or bad numbers or poor compensation. (Inclusive or)

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