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What's SAP?

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Re: What's SAP?

#541

I teach enterprise systems at a university, with emphasis on SAP. It's hideous. Hideous. My students complain it is unusable (agree), doesn't make sense (agree), that they can't see the point (agree). When you look at the underlying database 'schema' (inverted commas deliberate) you'll find it's a massive, denormalised mess. Much of what SAP can do can be done at the local level using intuitive software. Reports, for…

We made a business game, scale-up, to teach ERP differently in universities. It's a role play game based on Odoo.

It's free for teachers (and students), you can get boxes here: https://odoo.com/scaleup

Re: What's SAP?

#542
post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy the "real world is complex deal with it" explanation. Banking (especially in US) is a total complexity nightmare. Yet you have Stripe.com who simplify it. Your PC operating system complexity and the International Network of computers is so complex you cannot figure it all with your brain alone. Yet you write your email everyday with it and your colleague in China get's it in seconds. Your supply chain is…

> Banking (especially in US) is a total complexity nightmare. Yet you have Stripe.com who simplify it. Strip only handle a tiny fraction of what banks do.

It's simpler than that: Stripe does the things that banks weren't even good at (APIs for programmatic payments).

Re: What's SAP?

#543

My company is doing an open source alternative to SAP (and replace several SAP implementations already): https://www.odoo.com

> and replace several SAP implementations already Can you clear up on „several“? Are these SME or LEs? Names?

We do both SMEs, and large corporate, with 5.5M users in total.

I would say we sign a 1000+ employee corporationn every month. Example, in Portugal we replaced 150 legacy proprietary software in 3 years: https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/collection/open-source-observato...

More case studies here:

Re: What's SAP?

#544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's 2020 and one would hope software companies realize the value of a good, clear, effective user interface. SAP is not the only one; ever tried the enterprise software from Oracle? Or the open source ERPs/CRMs? Painful. But everything has API's these days, so lot of departmental work is done on top. Small budgets so they have small, simple LoB apps made on top which are 'idiot proof'. These apps are very localize…

ERPNext (GPL V3, https://github.com/frappe/erpnext ) is being deployed by many large companies as we speak. India's largest Stock Broker Zerodha ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B6nfq1UR3Y ) and biggest Listed Company ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnoWwSBDQlI ) are actively using ERPNext. ERPNext is not open core like Odoo. Disclaimer: I am the founder of ERPNext

What part of ERPNext is GPL'd, if not the core?

Re: What's SAP?

#545
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Helsinki recently adopted Epic (under the local branding “Apotti”). One hospital death has already been confirmed as being due to UX difficulties with the new system. Link in Finnish: https://www.hs.fi/kaupunki/art-2000006391154.html

Not to downplay that tragedy, but we don't have any information on how many deaths were prevented by switching away from their old system.

In Denmark, a country of approximately 6 million people, there are three different regions running the public hospitals. Two of the three regions choose a custom system, whereas the third choose Epic.

The results apparently doesn’t favor Epic in that it costs 4-5 times as much [1] and has caused productivity loss 1.5 years after implementation [2] (links in danish)

Still don’t know if is a fair comparison though, since you probably pay the costs of adhering to process to start off with and only reap the benefits later. However the Epic implementation has also been bug riddled and I’ve also read that the procedures are designed for a litigation happy US and thus are not rational to apply here.

[1] https://www.computerworld.dk/art/248393/sundhedsplatformen-e...

[2] https://www.rigsrevisionen.dk/media/2104845/sr1717.pdf

Re: What's SAP?

#546
post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> SAP can do can be done at the local level using intuitive software No they cannot. ERP's are beasts of expert domain knowledge hidden in shitty codebases, but don't be confused for an even a moment to think you can do it yourself. It's a fools errand, and I'd fire or not hire anyone that tried to intentionally do this rather than just build something basic to hedge time until you have to implement something more se…

Tesla doesn't have SAP and it's home grown. SAP is ymmv thing. Not all businesses fit in their framework.

With respect, Tesla isn’t exactly the poster child of “well run companies with excellent corporate governance.”

Re: What's SAP?

#547

Warning - very very vague question Would someone kindly differentiate between the ERP vs ITSM (IT Service Management) industry in perspective for me? I would in ITSM and often wonder if I would had been better off staying in ERP like SAP? Secondly, how does ERP fare in terms of complexity between game development vs ERP Software development? I understand the target base is totally different (Gamers vs Enterprise clie…

On your second question - as an enterprise software developer and hobbyist game developer of ~8 years, I'd say they're complex in different ways...

ERP software is mostly a giant CRUD app/database, with APIs, reporting functionality, and a ton of relatively simple code for automating the system/business processes attached to it. These parts taken alone are usually fairly simple, however the complexity really stems from the enormous scale, interfacing elements, moving requirements, and mutability of everything. It’s easy to knock SAP, but it’s difficult to keep software nice when you're dealing with these attributes.

As for game development, I tend to find it more computationally complex, but that can depend on the game and tools you use. By computationally complex, I mean the code itself is generally more complicated. However, what’s easier in game development is the amount of control over things you have. In comparison, you largely dictate how much mutability your game will end up dealing with, the data it will use, and how large the game will be. Players aren’t going to be dictating this. Not to say game development is easy, but it’s easy to make slick software when you have complete control over the nature of things.

So in short, ERP software is complex (and crappy) mostly due to the enormous scale and the complicated nature surrounding the software - whereas games are complex in regards to the nature of software itself.

Re: What's SAP?

#548
post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understood GP perfectly. What I'm saying is that the future need for a different business process does not necessarily outweigh the benefit of standardizing on something else today, just like a USB-C future does not invalidate the original decision of standardizing on USB-C.

Sure. But let's examine the question in this light - Today a new CEO was hired in a new company, she is smart AND has multi-millions to spend on an ERP, which she considers absolute must for smooth running of company operations. Now since she is smart, she is aware of SAP's reputation - i.e., SAP has absolutely nailed down today's optimal business processes (never mind those are actually decades old practices), howev…

The last two things don't have anything to do with SAP whatsoever. Just saying.

Re: What's SAP?

#549

A whole sea of comments, balmost all focused on the tech stack, reporting, UX, integration .. SAP's selling point is regulatory compliance and financial control. It doesn't matter if you have a great UX or lightweight extensible third party API ecosystem, what matters is "When the IRS / SEC / Congress / Interpol comes calling, am I clear?" Government regulation is the ultimate "vendor lock-in" and SAP exploits that f…

But even on this field (compliance) is it bullet proof ?

Re: What's SAP?

#550
post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> developed on a system that isn't designed to intuitively express the degree of logic required The poor souls are such because they usually fundamentally do not have the knowledge required across the broad spectrum of responsibilities an ERP does and how that all ties into managing a business. > I predict that millennials, who increasingly refuse to interact with anything below "app quality," This makes no sense. Wh…

> How supply chains are managed isn't going to change because of a bunch of woke millennials. Parent's point was that systems require trained and capable people. If the job entails dealing with something arcane, and you can't pay more (because cost center), then at some point you face a labor gap.

I can't see this happening any more than mechanics influencing how engines are designed. It sounds nice to rah-rah-rah the revolution, but ERPs are the dark underbelly of business are not going away any time soon while we depend on the 3 statement model.
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