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Bail – Get out of your plans, guilt free

bail-app.netlify.com

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Re: Bail – Get out of your plans, guilt free

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think more than 0.15% of people feel guilt/anxiety about wanting to cancel plans last minute. I don't have any data to back that up, but it is a fairly common emotion. 999/1000 people feel nothing when they have to renege on a social engagement?

No those people just know how to communicate like a normal human and say hey I'm really not up for it tonight let's reschedule. If anyone replies negatively or aggressively to that they then should find new friends. This is ridiculous

"communicate like a normal human" is a bit unnecessarily negative/aggressive there. Some people genuinely do have trouble with that. belittling them isn't gonna help any...

Re: Bail – Get out of your plans, guilt free

#72

I can't imagine being friends with someone who is this incapable of communicating. The solution to this problem is sending a text that says, "Hey, I'm not feeling like coming out today after all. Rain check?" This app is a worse solution than the obvious solution. Trying to be empathetic: if you feel the need to use something like this, I'm not qualified to diagnose you as having social anxiety, but I would suggest y…

Ok. I think you're right, but I just want to point out that people who are inclined to do things like this experience irrational thoughts. Anxiety is not rational. It fills my mind with irrational thoughts. It makes me afraid of things that rationally do not pose any risk whatsoever. I understand that my social anxiety should be fixed and I should not be inclined to do something like this. Truth is, it's very hard to communicate everything well with people, I have no problem communicating most things to my friends, but some things are very hard. This seems to be always missing in this conversation.

Re: Bail – Get out of your plans, guilt free

#73

I can't imagine being friends with someone who is this incapable of communicating. The solution to this problem is sending a text that says, "Hey, I'm not feeling like coming out today after all. Rain check?" This app is a worse solution than the obvious solution. Trying to be empathetic: if you feel the need to use something like this, I'm not qualified to diagnose you as having social anxiety, but I would suggest y…

I think you might be underestimating: A) the number of degrees of discomfort between, "I can talk about this any time with no effort", and "I literally can't talk about this". B) how normal it is for certain types of people to struggle with this kind of interaction in general. On the first point, I am perfectly capable of being frank with friends. I am perfectly capable of telling them how I feel. And when I need to…

Not the parent you're replying to, but I agree with their perspective for the most part.

I think absolutes are silly to use as arguments, and sure, there are certainly some people for whom it's really difficult to proactively cancel plans. Sometimes I'm that person. But I choose to suck it up and act like a human instead of (if I were to use this app) hiding behind a computer to let it do my dirty work for me. I certainly grant that there are some people who just can't do that sometimes, or even more often than sometimes.

It's hard to believe that there are enough people like that for an app. My feeling is that most people who use this would actually otherwise actively cancel plans, but will use the app instead just to be socially lazy or to avoid even a hint of confrontation, and the effect will be to lower the quality of social interaction between people overall.

Re: Bail – Get out of your plans, guilt free

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea is that if you bail and they don't, they'll never find out and your plans will remain uncancelled. But if you both decide you no longer want to meet up, you no longer have to, and nobody gets offended

This could leak information to the other party if bailing is still available during the event. By trying to bail myself after you show up I could "prove" you really didn't want to be here after all.

Similar to the problem with the 'secret crush' version of the same idea -- people can insincerely tick every box, simply to see which of their friends has a crush on them. I guess the same caveat applies: only use this app with people you trust. (Of course, some would say that if you really trust each other you don't need this app; but I don't know, I can see a use case for those situations where your plans have become inconvenient, but not sufficiently inconvenient to back out at short notice without seeming rude. I wouldn't use it myself but I don't even use a calendar app.)

Re: Bail – Get out of your plans, guilt free

#75

Hi, I created a quick landing page to validate an idea for an app. I'll be honest, the idea isn't mine. I saw it suggested in a Twitter post which had huge traction, and decided to run with it. At the moment I'm just trying to refine the concept and get an idea of whether there really is space for something like this out there

How do you get people to use it?

Like let's say I have drinks plans with my friend, and I want to bail using this service. How to I tell her to install the app?

Wouldn't asking her to install it be pretty rude? It would basically be saying "Hey, FYI I like to bail on stuff a lot. So you probably shouldn't make any plans involving me."

I could see that stigma as a critical roadblock against growing the kind of user-base you'd need for this to get popular.

Re: Bail – Get out of your plans, guilt free

#76

I can't imagine being friends with someone who is this incapable of communicating. The solution to this problem is sending a text that says, "Hey, I'm not feeling like coming out today after all. Rain check?" This app is a worse solution than the obvious solution. Trying to be empathetic: if you feel the need to use something like this, I'm not qualified to diagnose you as having social anxiety, but I would suggest y…

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Re: Bail – Get out of your plans, guilt free

#77
post #76

I can't imagine being friends with someone who is this incapable of communicating. The solution to this problem is sending a text that says, "Hey, I'm not feeling like coming out today after all. Rain check?" This app is a worse solution than the obvious solution. Trying to be empathetic: if you feel the need to use something like this, I'm not qualified to diagnose you as having social anxiety, but I would suggest y…

[deleted]

Somehow you equivocate being emphatic with being an awful communicator, specifically the type that says one thing when they actually mean something else entirely.

It's completely normal -- and expected -- from good friends to join you for a beer or for some other activity they are not thrilled about in order to make you happy. And then you reciprocate, because that's what friends do.

Your friends help you move not because they have nothing better to do, because they are your friends. It's silly for both parties to pretend they like to help each other move, and if you have a solid relationship they'll tell you how much they hate moving but you know they'll still show up.

Re: Bail – Get out of your plans, guilt free

#78
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the reason. Telling a friend you want to cancel is hard, and depressing, and so you oftentimes go just to not bail on them. And hate it. But what if your friend is feeling the same way? What if you both want to cancel, but neither of you wants to hurt the other person. Well, with something like this, you can bail without letting them down; they only know you wanted to bail -if they also want to bail-. That…

Maybe its a cultural thing. Around here we grow up and learn to state our preferences honestly and understanding its not hurtful to be truthful but rather the opposite. Weaseling about is something you correct small children on.

Does that extend to backing out of a social engagement at very short notice, simply because you no longer feel like it, without fear of causing offense? I think a lot of people make plans with friends in all sincerity, but sometimes end up feeling tired or socially burned out whatever, and wish they had left the time free but would feel unfriendly canceling at the last minute without a stronger reason.

edit: also, I think sometimes preferences are kind of fuzzy. Like, maybe I have no social energy and feel like staying in, so I'll only follow through out of a sense of obligation -- but there's a decent chance the social contact will actually energise me and be enjoyable once I snap out of my funk. So maybe the social pressure is good for me up to a point -- but if my friend is feeling the same as me, maybe we'd both be better off taking the night off and seeing each other next time.

Re: Bail – Get out of your plans, guilt free

#79

I can't imagine being friends with someone who is this incapable of communicating. The solution to this problem is sending a text that says, "Hey, I'm not feeling like coming out today after all. Rain check?" This app is a worse solution than the obvious solution. Trying to be empathetic: if you feel the need to use something like this, I'm not qualified to diagnose you as having social anxiety, but I would suggest y…

I disagree, hear me out. The reason this app makes sense is because if you are an empathetic person, and know other empathetic people, there's actually no good way to solve this problem through direct communication.

Lets say you have plans with someone. But then, you decide fundamentally: if the other person would still like to do this, I am happy to. But if not, I'd prefer not to. This is the game theoretic situation this app attempts to solve.

Now lets figure out a way to solve this problem through direct communication. The problem with trying to do so, is often when someone expresses a change to preferences, if you assume that person is empathetic, they will likely be diluting the degree to their change insofar as that change could negatively affect the recipient of the news. Why?

It's because there's a catch-22 in this situation between empathy and honesty. Empathy dictates we try to maximize utility between the parties. When expressing this new preference, if one is empathetic, one expresses it in a way to try to maximize the likelihood that the other party interprets it in a way they can still act selfishly to the maximally acceptable degree. However, the recipient of the information, if empathetic, can anticipate this, and hence may interpret the person's statement as pre-diluted, so in order to maximize utility from their perspective (out of empathy) they in turn may yield due to the imperfect information and assume the preference expressed is stronger than implied by the statement directly. In other words, if I hear this from someone, I put even odds that the person is being completely honest (out of valuing honesty), or, that they actually would really want to skip this plan if it would not cause me emotional pain, and have chosen to continue to express it in a way that leaves the option open (out of valuing empathy.) I know people who would do one or the other, and I don't consider either approach a sign of a moral failure.

In reality, both sides of the communication wrangle with the conflict between empathy + utility maximization in framing their expression, and honesty, which (despite its virtue) runs the risk of being misinterpreted given the other party may assume it is being diluted to maximize utility out of their empathy. Diluting the statement or being direct about it are both rational, depending on how important maximizing utility is due to empathy vs expressing honest preferences.

This app neatly solves this problem. It's not about reducing social awkwardness, it's about preventing the need for mutually-empathetic individuals to have to make trade-offs between the competing desires for objective communication (out of the value of honesty) and trying to maximize utility (out of the value of empathy and selflessness.) If one could be certain another party is being honest, this kind of technique would not be necessary, but since dishonesty in this situation falls out of empathy, its potentially virtuous and comes down to a preference of one's values in how to deal with the situation.

Re: Bail – Get out of your plans, guilt free

#80
i applaud the lean methodology. minimal detail, free-tier hosted contact form. throw it out on HN and a few other sites (i've not looked, just assume) and check the your conversions per channel in a day or two. HN is a great place to see what tech-leaning people think of stuff (even if it can get a bit sideways at times) and get some free unsolicited advice on everything from implementation patterns to prior art to the occasionally valuable feature idea.
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