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What's SAP?

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Re: What's SAP?

#301
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you work in a grey office with grey carpets and grey desks? Aesthetics matter. Make software that is beautiful and a joy to use.

Honestly when I work, I focus on the content. Bloomberg Terminals command based UI is a designer’s nightmare, but you get anywhere you want to go in a few keystrokes, and as far as I can tell, most other users love it too.

The Bloomberg terminal does two things which make it much more approachable for beginners than you suggest. Don't know which function you need to do something? Type in what you want (and possibly hit HELP if it doesn't autocomplete for you) and you'll find it 9 times out of 10. The 1 time out of 10 that doesn't work, you start a chat with support and they'll point you in the right direction pretty well immediately.

The one slightly annoying thing is that for a lot of things there are at least 5 different ways to do the same thing/5 different screens with very similar functionality, and everyone seems to use a different one.

But it's also worth saying it's a tool specifically aimed at specialists - it's not going to hold back on giving you a huge number of options over which data you want and how you want it presented, and it's not going to warn you that some data might be incomplete or not the one 'everyone' uses.

Re: What's SAP?

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone working in healthcare, I can attest to the value in getting an healthcare org to adopt standardized workflows. I'll take an org that follows process over better software that isn't used in a consistent manner. There is too much operational and human complexity to solve healthcare with software alone.

What happens when the disease in my body declines to adapt to Epic's standardized workflow?

Helsinki recently adopted Epic (under the local branding “Apotti”).

One hospital death has already been confirmed as being due to UX difficulties with the new system. Link in Finnish: https://www.hs.fi/kaupunki/art-2000006391154.html

Re: What's SAP?

#303

I teach enterprise systems at a university, with emphasis on SAP. It's hideous. Hideous. My students complain it is unusable (agree), doesn't make sense (agree), that they can't see the point (agree). When you look at the underlying database 'schema' (inverted commas deliberate) you'll find it's a massive, denormalised mess. Much of what SAP can do can be done at the local level using intuitive software. Reports, for…

I’m not sure I agree with your finally point. There is a lot of software out there that can be customised extensively to fit any particular business, and it’s awfully tempting to do so because you incur a financial cost rather than a social one. But while the social cost of changing how you do things might have been a one off thing the financial cost will turn into a recurring thing every time you want to upgrade. It…

Or instead of being trapped a monstrous framework, you can integrate off the shelf libraries (no forking needed) into your architecture.

Ask Rob Pike about Go vs Enterprise Java.

Re: What's SAP?

#304

I teach enterprise systems at a university, with emphasis on SAP. It's hideous. Hideous. My students complain it is unusable (agree), doesn't make sense (agree), that they can't see the point (agree). When you look at the underlying database 'schema' (inverted commas deliberate) you'll find it's a massive, denormalised mess. Much of what SAP can do can be done at the local level using intuitive software. Reports, for…

> I (am actually told to) teach that changing the business to fit SAP is preferable to changing SAP to fit the business. And it's accurate advice. It shouldn't be, but it is. This isn't necessarily bad advice when moving to a new system. If the development cost exceeds or far exceeds the retraining cost then this is sound advice. I appreciate that this could be a tough calculation to make. Change resistance will like…

And while not every single SAP strandard might fit every single edge case in a given business, SAP standard processes are pretty much a condesation of best practices across hundreds of businesses. So they aren't that bad.

That SAP charges extra for industry specific solution, aerospace, process / chemical, and so on, is a different story.

Re: What's SAP?

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And let's not forget Hershey's disaster which they blamed on SAP and their implementation partners, mentioned here with 14 other ERP failures (yes, SAP is predominant, but there are other offenders as well...; article Oct 2019) https://www.cio.com/article/2429865/enterprise-resource-plan...

How much does the CEO get paid to offload responsibility for failure onto vendors?

Nothing? I guess, or maybe I don't understand the question?

Re: What's SAP?

#306
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH SAP is almost required for big corporations as they usually are publicly traded companies, require external audits from BIG4(and these guys know how to get data from standard SAP models, not so much from you self-developed system) and have to report their financials in consistent way. For example Apple, Microsoft, Amazon and Google all can use SAP internally. But it would be false to state that all their business…

I would be interested to know if they are actually using SAP. These companies are so much better at software development and they are swimming in so much money that they could even implement something by themselves.

Google, Apple, and Microsoft do, Amazon does not, based on some moderate Googling for job postings, staff on LinkedIn, and conference attendees.

Re: What's SAP?

#307
post #280

I teach enterprise systems at a university, with emphasis on SAP. It's hideous. Hideous. My students complain it is unusable (agree), doesn't make sense (agree), that they can't see the point (agree). When you look at the underlying database 'schema' (inverted commas deliberate) you'll find it's a massive, denormalised mess. Much of what SAP can do can be done at the local level using intuitive software. Reports, for…

>changing the business to fit SAP is preferable to changing SAP to fit the business. And it's accurate advice. It shouldn't be, but it is. This is a common misunderstanding. Many people miss the underlying philosophy of SAP software. The reason SAP encourages businesses to adopt SAP's way of doing things is that they did research into the optimal way of doing the common business processes that don't differentiate you…

The research that was put into finding optimal processes for those non-differentiating business functions can of course be invalidated at a later time. We all put lead in gasoline because it seemed optimal, then later we kept putting it in gasoline well past the point it was known to be harmful, because everything was designed around it.

Re: What's SAP?

#308

I wanted to be angry at it. But I couldn't. It's so bad it's reached greatness. A piece of software that plays (at least) one sound on every user action, and the sounds are completely arbitrary and 8bit at best . Where you have to press 5 buttons in a row to do the one thing it's meant to do. Where you have an angry fruit salad in a time sheet. A piece of software that takes 30 minutes to enter your worksheet time. A…

That sounds like a great feature for making software accessible to blind people. Even for sighted people, I can see how it could be useful.

The next step should be to have a database of standardised, free and open source sounds that can be used by any program, so that the same sound means roughly the same thing across all of them (assuming that this feature is not patent-encumbered).

Re: What's SAP?

#309
The author spends a whole section on "The importance of integration", the value being sold as "...the two [SAP] modules were able to seamlessly interact with each other since they shared the same database." and "because these [other] systems don’t interact, they needed to be synced regularly, and that often meant having a human manually move data around." ... "Integrated software solves this by facilitating communication".

In the very last paragraph of the article they then say "...on the back-end, most modern enterprise software (e.g. Salesforce, Jira, etc.) now have good APIs for exporting data. ETL + data lakes are on the rise...".

This is a mistake I see made a lot; not because of naivete tho': usually because the concerns cut across each other so much.

The economic and efficiency incentives around integration are very delicate. SAP is so complex that (assuming you can hire great engineers, which isn't necessarily a given outside the tech sector) you can probably build most of what you need with a small team that's much cheaper than SAP. However, you can't successfully (even with good access to great tech sector talent) grow that software as quickly or as broadly as what you'd get from SAP. You also carry a lot more risk. ...and that's risk outside of the core focus of your business. The article even includes one quote, "competitive advantage in this industry might just come from doing the best and cheapest job at implementing SAP." which recognises this as an operational rather than capital problem.

...but even if you can accomplish it, it's the integration that gives you the value. You're always going to have higher operational costs for your thing if you build it out of something like Salesforce and Jira sewn together with APIs. ETL is hard to do well for anything other than reporting (and even then it's not easy). Data lakes are the epitome of loosely integrated data structures. Most of the time they're a collection of files full of data in weakly-or-stringly typed formats such as CSV, JSON and XML. Getting at the domain models of the producing software is always a pain. For all these things, your talent pool for effective support is small and gets smaller as you add more products to the mix.

So the three options are:

1) Buy (+ professional services)

2) Build

3) Integrate (e.g. "Salesforce + Jira")

3 (Integrate) is the mistake because it's less than the sum of it's parts. You carry all the risk of "Build" and don't get the brand stability and integration of "Buy". Multiple vendors gives you more risk than a single one in this scenario because you're buying different things from different vendors. So now you have more chances for failure: failure or withdrawal of one of the vendors, API changes that you don't control, etc, etc.

As the SaaS markets become more mature I'd hope to see consortiums of vendors who had products that they would certify as working together. I don't think we're quite there yet tho'.

2 (Build) is the Big Bet because you're taking a capital expenditure approach to an operational problem. You're investing in intellectual property outside of your core business. ...and you own all the risk.

1 (Buy) is difficult because it is expensive and loads of things you want are still only sold on a professional services basis, rather than as a product. It's also a market designed for the large companies with between 6 and 9 figures to spend. It's also one of those infrastructure projects that is usually shaped as something that doesn't deliver any value until it has been rolled out everywhere. However, this is the option where you hold the least technical risk and most of the risk you do hold is related to abilities that are hopefully aligned with your existing skills of management and operational delivery.

Re: What's SAP?

#310
post #205
post #70

People complaining about how user-unfriendly SAP is or how companies adapt to SAP instead of the other way around are missing the point of SAP. The point of SAP is that the module for your type of business is being implemented at the market leader in your area, because they are the only ones who can afford it. SAP will come to the market leader and put their processes into software. Then everybody else adapts to SAP…

If you are not working for SAP SMM they should give you a call :)

You see SAP SMM effect in action – they trick IT guys into vocalizing their mantra in this exact form, since they know who their real threat is. SAP+IBM is a most powerful combo. The total price is so astronomical that IT guys who know how to manage it can have stellar salaries and still look like small happy asteroids floating around this SMBH.
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