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What's SAP?

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Re: What's SAP?

#131
post #125

SAP has enabled/mandated an army of people at my company who manage it and ruthlessly control even read access to it. The software is user-hostile, intentionally obscure, and all requests for slightly customized reports have to go through a multilayered approval process - often up to corporate - where it competes for funding against other survivors. Needing something custom invites constant questions of why the stand…

HR data is necessarily controlled though, there are pretty stingent controls in law around that. I understand the pain of not being able to report on stuff, but there is probably a sound reason. However, the delivery you describe sounds like a broken organisation tbh

No, this is the SAP business model. If people think that Apple, Sony, or Microsoft try to lock you in to their 'walled garden' then these people have never seen an SAP installation/integration.

It's almost its own industry. There are fleets of consultants charging ~$1000 a day just to install the system. Then, as the OP said, they charge by the hour for customised reports which means that businesses have to choose their report very carefully, and will probably need several more hours consulting when one aspect didn't work quite how they thought.

I would be surprised if the commenter here was someone who didn't already have access to the data. They are being frustrated by consultants who want to keep their billable hours up, and extraneously restricting access under guises such as "this person doesn't have enough training to touch the system," because it keeps them in paid work.

Source: Friend of mine. Man on the inside.

Re: What's SAP?

#132

SAP has enabled/mandated an army of people at my company who manage it and ruthlessly control even read access to it. The software is user-hostile, intentionally obscure, and all requests for slightly customized reports have to go through a multilayered approval process - often up to corporate - where it competes for funding against other survivors. Needing something custom invites constant questions of why the stand…

It exactly feels like you are telling the story of my previous company. Although they started using SAP because company was going public and it E&Y advised company to implement SAP. Implementation was never successful. Day to day productivity greatly suffered. You had to do things SAP way, regardless of it being right or wrong. There were training sessions every weekend. Even trainers were confused. Everyone was mad.

Soon after our company went public, we gave up on SAP and started doing things old ways.

Re: What's SAP?

#134
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The software is user-hostile, intentionally obscure This a million times. I don't know if good interfaces can not be built in SAP, or if it's very difficult to do, or if the developers of apps on SAP platform just don't care. It's a real headache to use and completely confusing. It's 2020 and one would hope software companies realize the value of a good, clear, effective user interface.

I take a very neutral position to this. Enterprise software at the scale SAP is operating (mainly its core ERP) at a Fortune 500 enterprise level. This characteristic (needs at that level) are user-hostile, not the software. Imagine this situation: - You're a F500 pipe manufacturer and a sales person needs to enter an order for 100 pipes to be manufactured and sent to a customer in the US Now imagine you need to: - O…

> I've learned a lot about the "real world" since then.

This is key. It's the make or buy decision, which is also the "adapt software to process or process to software decision". Building something custom in order to get rid of SAP is a project that would take years and probably fail because different departments spread across countries won't agree on a way of work.

SAP allows C-level to say "just deal with it" and force people to adapt rather than try and get everyone happy with the software. This is the definition of use hostile, but it's also a way to get things done, in stead of just discussing what to get done.

Re: What's SAP?

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The software is user-hostile, intentionally obscure This a million times. I don't know if good interfaces can not be built in SAP, or if it's very difficult to do, or if the developers of apps on SAP platform just don't care. It's a real headache to use and completely confusing. It's 2020 and one would hope software companies realize the value of a good, clear, effective user interface.

It brought the "swim lane" mentality to my outfit. There is a "process is king" mindset where people exist to run some report or the other with a completely impenetrable abbreviation and set of unmarked mandatory fields also with no intuitive signifcance. Grab the next item on the work list, do your thing, and mark it complete. If some project asks what's required on either end or how to move their need forward, that…

Process is king in mature industries where profits are extracted from scale and volume. Anything outside of standard process is expensive. If there is no external entity to bear the cost, then this cost is to be minimised.

You and I may not agree with this approach, and the formula is somewhat different for creative industries, but numbers don't lie. It's always a compromise between agility/adaptability and cost when in a production line.

A main function of an ERP system like SAP is to maximise this extraction.

Re: What's SAP?

#136

SAP has enabled/mandated an army of people at my company who manage it and ruthlessly control even read access to it. The software is user-hostile, intentionally obscure, and all requests for slightly customized reports have to go through a multilayered approval process - often up to corporate - where it competes for funding against other survivors. Needing something custom invites constant questions of why the stand…

When my organization (20k+ employees) started its process to migrate many systems to SAP, this project filled a seven-story building. Cost: 2 billion NOK, so far.

Re: What's SAP?

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's conflating SAP (a company) with the ERP system, but reality is a little different. There are 133,000 tables in a system I just checked, and 40,000 are flagged as configuration.

What's the breakdown of those configuration tables? I'd imagine (perhaps incorrectly) that most are just integer/enum/bool fields? If so, how many of those tables just exist to define enumeration cases?

I suspect an awful lot. I worked at a place that did their own ERP software and that had thousands of database tables, many of which were simply enum fields.

The entire system required magic numbers to be put into various columns in different tables, simply to modify the behaviour of the "logic" code as it resolved to a C++ enum once extracted from the database.

It was horrible, and nobody knew how the entire system worked, so there was a vast disconnect between what it actually did (and the hundreds of auto-generated SQL statements it ran, very slow) and what they thought it did.

As expected, this created wildly different expectations of what was possible from the internal "implementation" team versus developers. Of course, this was interpreted as the developers' fault, and there was a constant stream of new developers that would stay for a year or two, then leave. Toxic.

Re: What's SAP?

#138
post #77

All in all an interesting article, although some PR piece alarm bells just went off. I would have loved to have additional information that might not have been provided due to the fact that Retool is a very early stage competitor in the ERP space. With all the SAP bashing that is happening, there must be some advantages that the SAP software suite has, right? I would love to hear about them. The rigid nature of the S…

"

Some? It's 100% PR. Nothing else. 1st ad I see this year, courtesy of HN, cause otherwise uBlock Origin would've stop it.

Re: What's SAP?

#139
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The software is user-hostile, intentionally obscure This a million times. I don't know if good interfaces can not be built in SAP, or if it's very difficult to do, or if the developers of apps on SAP platform just don't care. It's a real headache to use and completely confusing. It's 2020 and one would hope software companies realize the value of a good, clear, effective user interface.

I take a very neutral position to this. Enterprise software at the scale SAP is operating (mainly its core ERP) at a Fortune 500 enterprise level. This characteristic (needs at that level) are user-hostile, not the software. Imagine this situation: - You're a F500 pipe manufacturer and a sales person needs to enter an order for 100 pipes to be manufactured and sent to a customer in the US Now imagine you need to: - O…

This should be higher up. Everyone here thinks a simple shinny crud app to order materials for a fancy start up would be so much easier. In reality anything that starts like this will need to face this complexity at some point. Turns out the SAP way is a compromise between usability and extensibility that worked for a long time.

Re: What's SAP?

#140
post #4

Some consultant had told "Adopting an ERP (SAP, Oracle or other) is a stronger bond than marriage". So those valuations could be strong and long term.

I used SAP at work to keep track of monthly working hours. The GUI had this... feature that doesn't allow you to resize the form you're working with. And you can scroll vertically, but the first columns are frozen in place. As a result, only 15% of your screen is usable, showing 4 out of the 30 columns you need to fill at a time and requiring constant scrolling. As a user, I would have been happy to dump it and use a…

Do users just accept this "feature" garbage? I get the feeling they do.
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