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The mysteries of aerodynamic lift

scientificamerican.com

151–160 of 178 posts

Re: The mysteries of aerodynamic lift

#151
post #35

This is a somewhat confusingly written article about a famously confusing topic. It directly parallels arguments about how sailboats are able to sail. Sails are also airfoils so similar mechanics come into play. Interestingly, because a sail has effectively no thickness, both sides of the sail always have the same length, which immediately calls the Bernoulli argument into question. Sailboats are also interesting bec…

The billiard ball model works fine when you include the impact of other billboard balls on each other resulting in vortexes etc. It’s simply computationally expensive to do so. Anyway, absolutely flat wings generate lift as long as the angle of attack is non zero. But, by changing the wings shape they get more efficient. The reasons for that are complex differential equations that don’t really have simple plain Engli…

Symmetric airfoils (which do exist) are considered to have a centerline in the obvious (symmetric) place, but this doesn't have anything to do with angle of attack. For various reasons, aerobatic planes sometimes have symmetric airfoils with an angle of incidence of zero—that is, the aircraft centerline and airfoil centerline are parallel.

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/7560/what-are-t...

Angle of attack is a separate issue.

Re: The mysteries of aerodynamic lift

#152
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Interestingly, because a sail has effectively no thickness, both sides of the sail always have the same length, which immediately calls the Bernoulli argument into question Bernoulli's principle is often misunderstood. The principle itself doesn't say anything as to why different speed effects are observed around airfoils. It only states that within a steady state of fluid flow, increases in speed are associated wit…

my understanding is that Bernoulli's principle also involves equal transit times. Meaning that the same two positions need to rejoin later. When the sail has no thickness the outer flow cannot go faster and still be a valid Bernoulli effect, because the outer and inner paths have the same distance. That being said, there might still be another similar principle at work, though technically speaking it should not be ca…

I disagree that bernoulli's principle demands equal transit times, but I think it is an irrelevant point.

I believe the key fact is instead that the outer flow is forced into a curve, even though the straight path is technically free (no sail to stop it), because a vacuum (low pressure zone, anyone?) would be generated between the outer flow and the sail.

Hence, the sail needs no thickness to generate its lift, but only to separate the inner and outer flow.

Moreover, due to the viscosity of air, the area of influence of the sails goes well past the immediate layer of outer flow, but rather the layers of outer air closest to the sail have a similar "sail" effect, to a lesser degree, to adjacent layers of air.

Re: The mysteries of aerodynamic lift

#153
I could not find sources quoted for the controversy and doubt regarding the physics behind lift in this article?

As a sailor with an amateur-ish passion for physics, the dynamics of lift are clear to me for years (Dunning Kruger?) and I would love to read about where the doubts regarding each of the theories lie.

The doubts reported in the info-graphics are really confusing, because both the increased speed and the low pressure area above the wing are easily explainable with vector arithmetic and fluid dynamic respectively. The statement that Bernoulli's principle does not explain planes flying upside down seems also very naive.

Re: The mysteries of aerodynamic lift

#154
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue is that once you recognize that lift is the reaction to accelerating the airflow downwards You need bernoulli to explain why the flow field is changed beyond just the area in contact with the flow. This induces the measured pressure differential, explaining part of lift along with the reaction effects of deflected flow for momentum conservation (NS, Newton's 2nd law). It's simply not _enough_ to say that…

In my previous reply, I overlooked this sentence, which gets to the heart of the misunderstanding: > It's simply not _enough_ to say that it's purely angle-of-attack or geometry, and it's definitely not enough to say it's just pressure difference caused by Bernoulli, it's _both at once_. Given a situation where Bernoulli is applicable (steady-state flow and inignificant compressibility effects), if you were to measur…

Not quite. You can't just derive the equation of state that's equivalent to Bernoulli's principle from Newton's laws.

Only for incompressible flow is it a consequence of Newton's second law (NS)

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli%27s_principle#Deriva... -- the broader (applies to compressible flow too) derivation is via conservation of energy and mass

Re: The mysteries of aerodynamic lift

#155
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Pump" is doing a lot of work in that explanation. It's a very subtle thing to explain the pressure differential of a non moving airfoil, and marry it up with such real-world conditions like flying aircraft upside down, trailing edge vortices, and the like. You need both Newton and Bernoulli here, and Euler when viscosity is irrelevant (most airfoils except on the boundary layer) -- the Kutta-Joukowski theorem demand…

> It's a very subtle thing to explain the pressure differential of a non moving airfoil I'm not sure that's a real thing that happens in real life or theoretical physics. If the airfoil isn't moving, is anything happening? Or are you talking about a non-moving airfoil with air moving around it? It's impossible to tell the difference between a non-moving airfoil with air moving around it and a moving airfoil with stil…

Yeah I used the wrong term: an airfoil that isn't changing its shape or being used like a bird wing, where there's more going on than just in a fixed-wing aircraft.

But yes, the relative motion is what matters.

Re: The mysteries of aerodynamic lift

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nuclear energy I beg your pardon? > does not mean that momentum "is" energy by any interpretation I never said that. You literally said "momentum has nothing to do with energy", and I gave you one example where they are directly related. > can you transform a linear momentum into another kind of momentum Yes, you can. This is exactly why I mentioned yo-yo. > momentum is a vector and ... energy is a scalar and conse…

> I beg your pardon? Not sure what could be unclear there at all. Nuclear energy can be turned into any other energy and vice versa. As long as something has mass it has energy - whether or not we can readily transform that is beside the point. Your recurring yo-yo example only demonstrates that you don't understand the physical phenomena in the first place. The linear momentum is conserved when the yo-yo pulls on yo…

It feels that you've got some idea that I'm not understanding the difference between energy and momentum because it's a common misconception, and hold on it. I do understand that they are different. My objection is your insistence on them being "unrelated".

As of the yo-yo, let's remove the muscle power and the wobbling earth out of the picture and consider a it a closed system.

We've got a fully wound-up yo-yo, not rotating. It has a certain amount of potential energy. When you release it, its potential energy starts transforming into kinetic energy of linear motion and of rotation. This kinetic energy can be measured at any moment via observing the linear and rotational momenta of the yo-yo, which are the functions of its mass and torque, and the both velocities. Speaking of which, there is no other way of measuring the energy of this system. As it reaches the end of the line, and starts winding up again, its potential energy is zero, its kinetic energy is at its maximum, and its linear momentum changes the direction to upwards.

I'm telling you this to demonstrate that I understand the difference and your main objection is not exactly applicable here.

And, of course, momentum and kinetic and potential energy are intimately related in such a system. I don't understand how one could deny that.

> Momentum has nothing to do with energy

That's what I meant. Kinetic energy is a function of momentum and you are insisting it is not!

Perhaps we are being confused by each other's different ways of using the word Energy. When I use it (in the mechanical context), I mean strictly kinetic energy or potential energy, but nothing else. I've been taught to use it that way and was quite harshly slapped on the wrist (verbally) for failing to stick to it (that is, for magical thinking).

You seem to be using it in a broader sense (e.g. "nuclear energy". I don't know what nuclear energy is -- it s what multiplied by what, specifically?).

Re: The mysteries of aerodynamic lift

#157
post #123

I lecture fluid mechanics. There are actually two Bernoulli equations. Remember that Bernoulli’s work is derived for and is only valid along a streamline. A streamline is an imaginary curve that is tangent to the flow field. It’s not some invisible tube, it’s a mathematical representation of a vector field. The first one is the well known one mentioned in the article. It relates pressure and velocity tangent to a str…

Thanks.

Minor typo in your lecture notes just after equation (22).

"The assume the flow is steady, inviscid and and incompressible."

should be

"They assume..."

Re: The mysteries of aerodynamic lift

#158
post #123

I lecture fluid mechanics. There are actually two Bernoulli equations. Remember that Bernoulli’s work is derived for and is only valid along a streamline. A streamline is an imaginary curve that is tangent to the flow field. It’s not some invisible tube, it’s a mathematical representation of a vector field. The first one is the well known one mentioned in the article. It relates pressure and velocity tangent to a str…

Thanks. Minor typo in your lecture notes just after equation (22). "The assume the flow is steady, inviscid and and incompressible." should be "They assume..."

Thanks!

Re: The mysteries of aerodynamic lift

#159
post #112
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airplane/helicopter mass * g * time Assuming the plane/helicopter didn't accelerate up or down and assuming there's no wind.

Sure, that has to be true if the helicopter can hover. But how do you know that's possible? You can't postulate that something flies as part of an explanation why it can fly...

Why not? I can see it is flying, no point in questioning that.

There are some invariants to the world, I can infer information from those invariants.

Just like if I weigh a bottle in the morning, and it shows 3kg, the. I weigh it in the evening, it shows 2kg - I'll know that net 1kg has left the bottle. Doesn't mean I know how.

Re: The mysteries of aerodynamic lift

#160
post #8

I suspect if you made a wing out of a flat piece of material, tilted at the appropriate angle of attack, it would be sufficient to fly a plane. It just wouldn't be optimized at all. Really, you need full Navier-Stokes behavior to explain all the forces acting on the wing. Bernoulli doesn't generalize to a full vector field, it's a simplified version of Navier-Stokes. Calling in the big guns doesn't make for an easy d…

Certainly not optimized but also I think the very definition of a stall. Ground school was ages ago for me but I do recall a bit of it. I thought the laminar flow on the top was vital for lift even a slight ripple was bad. A flat wing top and bottom would not create lift or poor lift. Well at least for aircraft with flaps and aelerons that need consistent airflow to maintain control. The difference in the bottom flat…

Ground school is intended to teach people a practical understanding of how to fly that is easy to internalize but not the whole story.

The aerodynamics lesson is a cartoon basically.

For example, each sentence you wrote above is both true and false. :)

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