Live data from Hacker News

Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

newyorker.com

261–270 of 343 posts

Re: Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

#261

I talk about the effects of limiting GDP-style growth on our lifestyle with my wife. We burn a lot of carbon and use a lot of resources traveling, but on the other hand in our day to day life we tend to buy food in bulk at health food stores, try very hard to avoid using plastic, share one fuel efficient car, etc. Our take is that, for the sake of our grandchildren's generation and generations beyond that, that we wo…

Marketable water rights in cattle ranching regions are around $0.01 per gallon in many areas last I checked. These are fully priced into the cost of beef because the producers are often literally paying for it. This isn't a hidden subsidy. Clearly the above "subsidy" numbers must have taken some liberties with the truth, or beef would be impossibly expensive at the grocery store.

Source: I used to own water rights in cattle country and did deals with beef producers that wanted to use that water for cattle.

Re: Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

#262
post #4

I'm not sure how you would fund pensions without growth

Imagine that you have a steady state society, of 1,000 people. There are no technological advancements, there is no population growth, there is no growth. Each year, 12.5 people are born. Each year, 12.5 people die. The average age of death is 80.

Each year, each person needs to consume 10 widgets to live. Each year, a healthy, working-age person can produce 20 widgets.

This society can clearly sustain itself, as long as each person spends half of their life working. To keep things simple (And to stick it to the DINKs), let's pretend that everyone has children, and is responsible for raising them until they can start working.

How would this society operate?

Well, you'd spend the first 25 years of your life supported by your parent (Who would work for 25 years to support themselves and you). You'd then spend 25 years supporting yourself, and your child. You'd then spend 15 years hoarding widgets, so that you can support your retirement. You'd retire at 65, with 150 widgets in the bank, and die at 80.

Essentially, you spend 40 years of life as a maker (Who can support two people in this time), and 40 years of your life as a taker (Who requires half of a maker's economic output to support them).

Everything works out wonderfully, and nobody needs a pension! Just save all the surplus you make between ages 50 and 65, and retire..! Except that there's two important differences between this abstraction, and the real world.

1. You can't hoard widgets in the real world. Goods have a very limited shelf life. Money gets eaten by inflation.

2. Even if the average age of death is 80, most people aren't average. If you were solely reliant on your personal hoard of widgets (Which was consumed away by spoilage/inflation) to see yourself through old age, you might still run out of widgets, because you happened to live till 83. Or you might have dropped dead two years after you retired - and thus all your savings would go to naught.

Pensions (Or social security, or some other similar instrument) are a solution to this problem. They solve the spoilage and inflation problem, by having your retired life being subsidized by widgets produced today (So they did not drop in value). They solve the 'average person' problem by pooling the risk, so that the very occasional person who happens to live to 90 doesn't go broke. They don't actually require any GDP growth, to work. What they do require is:

1. The same widget created today being more valuable than a 20-year old widget. (Due to spoilage or inflation. If we didn't have spoilage or inflation, we wouldn't need pensions.)

2. Proper levels of funding. The math for # of years worked, and # of years not worked has to add up.

3. There to not be GDP shrinkage. Things get problematic if your gdp or working population shrinks (Whether long-term, or short-term) - in that situation, pensioners have to take a haircut.

Since #1 is a given of the world we live in, and you are not asking about #3, all you need to handle correctly is #2.

Re: Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

#263
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is incorrect. If GDP is constant it means that every year the same amount of goods is produced. There can be a new industry in this case. It just means that another industry needs to get smaller. The workers in the other industry can move to the new one and no one is worse for the wear. GDP is the derivative of the amount of goods and not the amount of goods.

So if 1. the same amount of goods and services is produced and 2. you get more goods and/or services this year than last year, this means than 3. someone else must have less goods or services this year. I do not follow where this was incorrect.

Well, this response sounds a bit more measured than what you originally wrote but it is still seems a bit weird. For one thing, sometimes people consume less just because they do not need as much in a particular year. E.g., a person might buy a new car every ten years. Is he poorer in the nine years that he did not buy a car than in the one year that he did? That the amount that a person consumes may fluctuate is not very important nor should anyone start panicking about it nor as a signal that it is necessary to go into some fierce kind of competition.

Re: Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

#264
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't live in the universe at large, we live on Earth. Until someone takes us there or shows us how to go practically, and bring stuff back practically (not with e.g. "generation ships" and not with hand-waving about what we could or could not do with "ingenuity" in 100 years), we should not use a mere wish as a permission to not respect the hard present limits. (That's not something said against the idea of space…

To do that, we need more research, more production, better technologies, better energy usage, which turns out to be growth.

No, we could do that with limited growth (of general commerce economy) and just having more resources given to science. Even as a matter of political will (tons of resources in the US e.g. are given to the military which could be use for NASA programs).

We went to space with an 1/10th the economy of today. We had not been to the moon for 40+ years, despite the economy growing ever stronger.

Re: Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

#265
post #85
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So yes, unless you arbitrarily limit the entire globe to some level of prosperity like a novel about a disutopian world ruled by an evil anti-science theocracy, I don't see much evil to that (limiting the "the entire globe to some level of prosperity"). Nor it has anything to do with being anti-science. You could be pro-science (pro understanding the world, physics, math, etc), and against continuous growth. Better…

You don't see much evil to handicapping the entire human race?

No, I don't see "moar stuff, moar tech" as the ultimate reason of the human race.

I'd rather the human race is happier, more self-fulfilled, friendlier, with more solidarity, and better allocation of its resources, than it expanding forever...

If anything, I see much evil in "not handicapping" the human race, and ruining the planet, the animal life, and the human race in the process.

Re: Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

#266
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if 1. the same amount of goods and services is produced and 2. you get more goods and/or services this year than last year, this means than 3. someone else must have less goods or services this year. I do not follow where this was incorrect.

Well, this response sounds a bit more measured than what you originally wrote but it is still seems a bit weird. For one thing, sometimes people consume less just because they do not need as much in a particular year. E.g., a person might buy a new car every ten years. Is he poorer in the nine years that he did not buy a car than in the one year that he did? That the amount that a person consumes may fluctuate is not…

Durable goods obfuscate the issue, but let's take your example.

Let's say I want to have both an all-terrain car for the weekend and my regular car on the weekdays. I now consume two new cars very ten years instead of one. The same number of car has been produced in those ten years (no growth). Where does my extra car come from?

Re: Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

#267
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't see much evil in the absence of strategic intelligence required to avoid terraforming your own planet to make it less habitable?

Evil needs agency, so no, I don't see evil in the absence of something.

For one, societies do have agency. People decide every day, with who they elect, where they spend their money, how they live. You don't need a conscious goal of X to act in a way that brings X. And if you know that your actions are part of the problem and you still doing them, that's even worse.

Second, evil needs agency only when we talk of evil deeds.

An outcome can be evil in itself though - not evil-doing, evil, in the sense of bad, ominous, deleterious, etc.

Re: Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Isn't that a fancy way of saying "eating meat should be a privilege for the wealthy"? It absolutely should. https://newrepublic.com/article/120915/american-west-drought... - 90% of of Nevada's cropland is used for hay, 90% of Montana's, 60% of Utah's - 50% of California's water usage goes to livestock feed Etc etc. This is unsustainable, period. This is causing groundwater depletion (and has for decades) that will t…

> - 90% of of Nevada's cropland is used for hay, 90% of Montana's, 60% of Utah's Is the soil in Nevada, Montana or Utah particularly suitable for growing anything other than hay?

The soil is good but there isn't enough fresh water in most valleys, and the aquifers are heavily fragmented with poor interconnectivity so you can't treat them as one big aquifer. Consequently, there is often local water that isn't connected to any other watershed i.e. if it wasn't used for local agriculture it could not be used at all because it doesn't go anywhere.

The high desert is a good environment for growing many types of high-quality forage, both natural and farmed, so that tends to be what the land is used for. Cattle are raised on natural forage in the summer months and farmed forage in the winter months.

Agriculture is highly adapted to the economics and resources of the local environment. For example, there are parts of the high desert that specialize in onion production, of all things. It makes sense in context.

Re: Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

#269
> Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

The answer is a definitive no.

Reasons supporting the limit of growth are dwindling as people like Marc Andreessen openly state that the acceleration of growth is vital for the rehabilitation and improvement of our environment. (source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnU5Dikdr2U)

Other negative externality arguments of growth are starting to fall apart as well. Creative Destruction, Public Health, and Income Inequality are all being positively impacted from the reduction in unemployment and improvements in technology.

Re: Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

#270
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, this response sounds a bit more measured than what you originally wrote but it is still seems a bit weird. For one thing, sometimes people consume less just because they do not need as much in a particular year. E.g., a person might buy a new car every ten years. Is he poorer in the nine years that he did not buy a car than in the one year that he did? That the amount that a person consumes may fluctuate is not…

Durable goods obfuscate the issue, but let's take your example. Let's say I want to have both an all-terrain car for the weekend and my regular car on the weekdays. I now consume two new cars very ten years instead of one. The same number of car has been produced in those ten years (no growth). Where does my extra car come from?

Let us tell a bit of a story. You bought your two cars because your all-terrain car hobby is very important to you. This was a bit of a financial squeeze and you could not go on holidays as often as you liked. But since the car hobby is more important to you, you think you made the right decision and are happy about it. There is another person who thinks going on holiday is the greatest thing ever. He went on holidays five times last year. This was a bit costly but he decided he did not need a car that badly and could use public transport instead. This was a bit less comfortable but he thought the great experience of going on holidays five times was well worth the inconvenience. So, where did your car come from? It did come from the other person who did not buy a car but went on holidays instead. But both of you were happy with your decisions. No crisis situation or fierce competition is needed in situations where not everybody gets what they want. In fact, both persons might choose to forego a promotion that was offered to them and which would have contributed to economic growth because it would leave the one person with too little time for his car hobby and the other with too little time for this travels.
Post reply on HN