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What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

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Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#231
post #6

Fact: The plan is about replacing you with robots at work so they can rake in more profits. In return you get to go on welfare rebranded as UBI. Look it up UBI is about automation AI replacing humans for profit. (see geordie rose) So your 40k job becomes 10k to 15k welfare. MegaCorps pocket the rest of your wage as reward for selling you out to UBI and AI.

That's very nice of them. If I had the means towards that end, I wouldn't hand out welfare like that. In fact, I would probably tend towards the future scenario that was painted in Terminator, only with me controlling the AI, while pretending towards humanity that the AI went out of control. More profits that way. Seriously, if you have that kind of power, what's the incentive to let everyone else live?

> Seriously, if you have that kind of power, what's the incentive to let everyone else live?

Ethics and morals, maybe? Basic human empathy? I think I get where you're going with this. There are those, sociopaths and psychopaths for example, who would go to any length to get that kind of power and... what, when they have their T-3000s they're suddenly gonna have a come-to-Jesus moment? Unlikely, yeah.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#232
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very nice of them. If I had the means towards that end, I wouldn't hand out welfare like that. In fact, I would probably tend towards the future scenario that was painted in Terminator, only with me controlling the AI, while pretending towards humanity that the AI went out of control. More profits that way. Seriously, if you have that kind of power, what's the incentive to let everyone else live?

> Seriously, if you have that kind of power, what's the incentive to let everyone else live? Ethics and morals, maybe? Basic human empathy? I think I get where you're going with this. There are those, sociopaths and psychopaths for example, who would go to any length to get that kind of power and... what, when they have their T-3000s they're suddenly gonna have a come-to-Jesus moment? Unlikely, yeah.

Ethics and morals are traits that prevent people from raising to power, which is why people in power tend to be sociopaths.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem with this is that UBI is being given within the existing system of work-for-hire, rather than as part of a transition to a post-scarcity economy. In the current system, if you want to do X, you have to prove to the people who are willing to pay you a living wage/market rate to do X that you are worth hiring to do it. Under a (hypothetical) post-scarcity system, if you want to do X, you find a grou…

"Cultural shift"? What if men providing resources to their families is a drive that runs deeper than some kind of vestigial macho chauvinism? We already have mass depression, isolation, falling educational outcomes, suicide, and even radicalization of men who are unable to find purpose to attach themselves to in the modern economy. Are we to gloss over the function and instincts of half the population as an attitude…

There's a big difference between "I need my family to be provided for" and "I need to be the one to provide for my family." The former is what UBI and similar efforts would resolve, and is what is healthy to desire and need.

If it is true—and I do not for a second believe it is—that the latter is an actual biological drive in men specifically, then that's something we need to work on developing strategies to mitigate and work through in a healthy way, because it's not helpful in our modern society. Y'know, much like our panic response is not helpful in our modern society, and when someone has an overdeveloped one, we treat it as a mental illness to be treated, not a "function and instinct" that needs to be catered to.

Personally, I find the idea that men have a biological imperative to be the sole reason their families survive to be nothing more than a ludicrous extension of modern toxic masculinity, on par with "of course men will rape women, once they get aroused they can't help themselves, they have a biological imperative to propagate their genes."

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#234
post #142

Let us forget about whether UBI or Negative Income Tax works or not. Let's just say we will implement it by 2025. Who is to decide the amount of that? How will it be decided when living cost is greatly ( or literally ) dependent on property pricing? Hence different location will have different living cost. Food, as in raw material assuming you cook yourself which is the cheapest option, could varies from state or eve…

I know this is a late reply, but you ask a lot of questions lots of people ask. And since im passionate about the subject...:

Q: Who is to decide the amount of that? There are two main aspects to this. A: The goal is to eliminate or at least severly reduce the number of individuals living in poverty, or a basic needs package of sorts (emphasis on basic needs). So the povertly line is usually used as a guide. The first prevailing thought here is to peg it to the povertly line, which is already calculated annually by HHS. The second is to have a fixed rate that roughly equals the povertly line, but to periodically reassess it to bring it back up to par, sort of how we handle social security rates / minimum wage, etc. lastly, there is an equal distrobution of revenue. 2019 UBI tax generates 2.5T in revenue? the 250m adults get 10k in 2020.

I personally prefer the pegging to the poverty line. HHS sets the poverty line, and therefore the rate yearly, IRS dishes out the checks monthly. But thats just my opinion.

Q: How will it be decided when living cost is greatly ( or literally ) dependent on property pricing? Hence different location will have different living cost. Food, as in raw material assuming you cook yourself which is the cheapest option, could varies from state or even countries, but even if there is a 50% difference between the same items, the total amount spent on food will still be minimal. If you are allowed $4 per day and a 50% increase is only $2 increase, or $60 per month difference. A: The intent is not to completely replace your needs, so this concern is not usually a factor taken into consideration when calculating a UBI. Your assumption that UBI would be more valuable or less valuable depending on where you live is correct, however is not a concern as the UBI should theoretcially be able to allow you to live _at_ the poverty line somewhere in the country, and therefore the choice to continue to live in poverty realative to your location is _theoretically_ a choice to continue your state. A second answer to this is that states, and cities can adjust the UBI. A federal UBi is set to the federal poverty line, states can opt to charge an additional tax, and suppliment federal UBI with the tax revenue to only members of the states. Same for cities. So someone living in high plains of Wyominig may only receive the federal UBI, someone in LA could be receiving 3, Federal, Cali, and LA ubi's.

Q: Where as housing prices, rent will differ. Does UBI assumes I am going to live in remotely in small village? I dont have to live in a Citi, but I need somewhere to live while having the opportunities to find a job. And the future is heading towards megacities. A: Assuming we live in the Federal Only UBI, the assumption is that your day to day will not change. If you currently live and work in the city, you will continue to. You may see some modest inflation in items like rent, however, you should be no _worse off_ than you currently are, but hopfully better off. UBI's goal is not to make it so no one ever has to work. That would be detrimental to society as we know it. The goal is to reduce the number of individuals living in poverty. So, UBI should _allow_ individuals who are forced into cities to leave, since many people follow the jobs as it were, those individuals that are content to live in BFE are welcome to, without the pressure of work. It should also allow individuals to reduce hours / be a single income family. Many parents would like to stay at home with the kids, but are unable to do so, or at least for a period of time. UBI will help reduce the income pressures we face today. But once again, COL in the city is not usually considered in factoring the UBI. If you live in a city, and you receive a UBI, there would likely be very little expectations of change for you. The individuals who it is suppsoed to help (homeless) should see a huge gain. They could pay for food, theoretically afford a buss ticket to a new town outside of the city center since they no longer need to beg, and get cheap rent to get their feet under them. In a year or two, they could choose relocate back to the cities with a career if they so choose, etc. If we assume a local UBI to supliment the federal UBI, it is possible that you could quit working for an income and keep your current situation. But then agian, there would be less tax revenu to pay for the local UBI, which would mean

Statement: Basically what I am suggesting is, it is sort of pointless to discuss UBI or basic income guarantee without discussing housing. Which is not only the biggest expenses for living, but also the biggest asset class in our economy, and also the biggest problem.

Statement: I dont have an answer to those questions, but it just seems every time people discuss UBI or NIT ( Negative Income Tax ) or other BIG ( basic income guarantee ), we tends to ignore housing, or suggest hosting is not what BIG is hoping to solve. That is on the assumption with BIG people could basically live with sufficient food and water without dying if they are without jobs.

Comment: Housing costs are a huge part of the discussion, and are frquently discussed in the UBI circles. It is not ignored, however not the primary driver, and often not addressed in commentaries or summaries of the hugely complex subject. UBI is a wellfare program, full stop. Just as most of our wellfare programs are not designed to be an income replacement, but rather a suppliment, UBI is the same thing. For those of us who currently live in a high COL area, and shoose to do so, we will see very little difference in our day to day. Our bills will mostly stay the same, our jobs the same, and our expenses the same. We can expect that local price inflation, especially in the rent area, will most likely erase any gains we see from UBI. And that is OK, as we are not the ones UBI is implimented for. UBI is for the homeless, the overworked, and those who teeter at the povertly line. Its goal is to prevent a household from spiraling into a hole they cannot ever climb out of if they lose a job for a month. Like other wealfare programs, individuals may choose to use it as their sole means. There are housholds that use foodstamps as their sole source to purchase food with, or use the housing suppliments as their full rent checks. While the programs are not designed to be full replacements for these, some people make it work that way, and thats fine (depending on who you ask). UBI is simply a proposal to replace the many different and complicated and sometime unreliable wellfare programs with a single universal one. Some people may find a way to make UBI be their sole income source, and i look forward to seeing the creative things frugality will impliment. However for the overwhelming vast majority of us, nothing much will change. UBI should allow someone more mobility in the job market, should allow those in poverty a little more breathing room, should reduce the risk of starting your own business, could allow a household to leave the city if you wish since jobs dont keep them there. But for those of us living in a city apartment, (a little over half the country) we will see an additional ~$1k in our checking account each month, and probably an additional $500-$750/m in localized inflation (mostly in rents).

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#235
post #165
post #62

To me, it's the other way up: without UBI, there is a small number of people who die every year due to not having (sufficient) income. Usually not direct starvation, but exposure-related due to homelessness, or issues such as not being able to afford insulin. There are basically three kinds of response to this: a) they deserve it, all of them b) it's sad, but it's not our problem c) this is not acceptable and somethi…

What ever happened to d) this is not acceptable, and something should be done about it by individuals directly? Why do we need to abdicate responsibility for our local problems to a larger authority? Mutual Aid Societies and religions used to fill this gap - perhaps we can jointly invent a new modern substitute.

We already have moved these local problems to a larger authority. The modern wellfare programs are just that. UBI proposes to simplify that mess with a single more efficient way. UBI isnt introducing a new form of wellfare, but rather replacing the current ones.

Also very interested in proposals on joint ventures between the church and state to fill the gaps, as UBI will no question still have gaps. But overall UBI is simply replace a slow (testing and reuping, lots of minute conditions), unreliable (delays, not gaurenteed to be there forever), innefficient(high administation overhead, lots of monmey diverted to distrobution and testing, rather than the end individuals) wellfare program(s) with a fast (universal, so no testing), reliable (gaurenteed for everyone, so no thinking it will go away if you get a job or if you run out of balance) and efficient(little admin overhead, higher % of cash going to individuals) wellfare program.

Many UBI schemes propose that local institutions like states and/or cities also impliment a UBI tax to suppliment the federal. so still a local issue and local solution too.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Cultural shift"? What if men providing resources to their families is a drive that runs deeper than some kind of vestigial macho chauvinism? We already have mass depression, isolation, falling educational outcomes, suicide, and even radicalization of men who are unable to find purpose to attach themselves to in the modern economy. Are we to gloss over the function and instincts of half the population as an attitude…

There's a big difference between "I need my family to be provided for" and " I need to be the one to provide for my family." The former is what UBI and similar efforts would resolve, and is what is healthy to desire and need. If it is true—and I do not for a second believe it is—that the latter is an actual biological drive in men specifically, then that's something we need to work on developing strategies to mitigat…

I take gross exception to your rape equivocation. That's the sort of intellectual mine that, much like an actual mine, destroys conversations and leaves the whole field unwalkable for decades.

Back to the claim, sexual dimorphism and sexual division of labor are such a fundamental and ubiquitous element of human physiology and society that it is a mistake to assume there is no adaptation to speak of, or that the role of the male provider is suddenly maladaptive.

It may be that we can restructure society by common agreement in a different way that continues to harness the productivity of testosterone. That is not what you are espousing. Your ideas are a form of social high modernism which assumes the sexes are interchangeable as a premise, then categorizes any deviation as toxic and unhealthy (or even on par with rape apology, which is just... you've got to be kidding).

I don't see any basis to believe this other than that it simplifies the theory and makes utopia seem within reach. But we do have evidence to believe that sexual division of labor is effective (in a word, "civilization") and we are also seeing festering male issues in the decades since we've been experimenting with the alternative premise.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#238
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> UBI will be useless unless rent seeking is eliminated with it, because the price of any good or service that profits rent seekers will be inflated almost instantly to maintain differentials. I've heard this concern before, but what's the assumption that is being made? That UBI will drive more people to cities and increase demand? That landlords would simply increase rent knowing renters have a larger income? That p…

The term "rent seeking" as economists and the parent poster use it isn't about leases on apartments and offices per se, but rather capturing surplus- an example could be if you live in a house which requires leaves to be raked, your having more income might incentivize "big lawncare" to get laws passed saying you can only use a particular brand of rake in the city limits, one which can't be bought outright and has a…

That's been happening already across the board: medical costs, housing costs, etc. anywhere where demand is fairly inflexible.
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