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Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

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Re: Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

#11

Post by mytailorisrich »

julbaxter wrote: post #8

Can we have prosperity without growth? No. Can we have sustainability with growth? No. Then we can not have prosperity and sustainability. Can we afford not having sustainability? No. Then we can not afford prosperity.

We can have sustainability and prosperity.

It's a triangle: prosperity, sustainability, population. Choose 2 (and obviously if you don't choose sustainability the sh*t is going to hit the fan at some point anyway).

The key issue is the global population.

(Edit: We're discussing life on this planet. Colonising space obviously means that human population may continue to grow, but not on Earth and not using Earth' resources)

Re: Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

#13

Post by atemerev »

digitalengineer wrote: post #9
dharma1 wrote: post #4

I'm not sure how you would fund pensions without growth

Agreed. you can not. There are just too many pensioners: "Between now and 2050,the number of older persons will rise from about 600 million to almost two billion. In less than 50 years from now, for the first time in history, the world will contain more people over 60 than under 15" https://www.cassandracapital.net/post/the-unprecedented-demo...

This is why UBI is impossible. It is about 10x harder financially than pension funds.

Re: Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

#14

Post by demosito666 »

digitalengineer wrote: post #9
dharma1 wrote: post #4

I'm not sure how you would fund pensions without growth

Agreed. you can not. There are just too many pensioners: "Between now and 2050,the number of older persons will rise from about 600 million to almost two billion. In less than 50 years from now, for the first time in history, the world will contain more people over 60 than under 15" https://www.cassandracapital.net/post/the-unprecedented-demo...

And how is that a problem? As long as productivity grows at same rate as workers/pensioners ratio, the portion of gdp that should go towards retired ppl remains constant.

Re: Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

#15

Post by chii »

_red wrote: post #2

Debt-based monetary systems will skew towards ever increasing growth.

The way I think of it is that in order for debt to exist, interest on the debt must be paid. But to pay interest, you must create more value than the debt you incurred, otherwise you'd not have enough to pay the interest!

But the other side of debt is somebody's deposit. So if you summed the debt, it must be equal to all deposit. So from where would the interest come from? It must come from new production. But interest paid become a new deposit (for somebody), and from that new deposit, new debt is created...and hence, require infinite growth to continue to service interest payment.

Re: Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

#16

Post by atemerev »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #11
julbaxter wrote: post #8

Can we have prosperity without growth? No. Can we have sustainability with growth? No. Then we can not have prosperity and sustainability. Can we afford not having sustainability? No. Then we can not afford prosperity.

We can have sustainability and prosperity. It's a triangle: prosperity, sustainability, population. Choose 2 (and obviously if you don't choose sustainability the sh*t is going to hit the fan at some point anyway). The key issue is the global population. (Edit: We're discussing life on this planet. Colonising space obviously means that human population may continue to grow, but not on Earth and not using Earth' resou…

So, which country would you want to depopulate first?

Re: Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

#17

Post by chii »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #11
julbaxter wrote: post #8

Can we have prosperity without growth? No. Can we have sustainability with growth? No. Then we can not have prosperity and sustainability. Can we afford not having sustainability? No. Then we can not afford prosperity.

We can have sustainability and prosperity. It's a triangle: prosperity, sustainability, population. Choose 2 (and obviously if you don't choose sustainability the sh*t is going to hit the fan at some point anyway). The key issue is the global population. (Edit: We're discussing life on this planet. Colonising space obviously means that human population may continue to grow, but not on Earth and not using Earth' resou…

why can humans not expand interplanetarily? Then, inter-stellarly, then finally, inter-galactically?

Re: Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

#19

Post by [deleted] »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #11
julbaxter wrote: post #8

Can we have prosperity without growth? No. Can we have sustainability with growth? No. Then we can not have prosperity and sustainability. Can we afford not having sustainability? No. Then we can not afford prosperity.

We can have sustainability and prosperity. It's a triangle: prosperity, sustainability, population. Choose 2 (and obviously if you don't choose sustainability the sh*t is going to hit the fan at some point anyway). The key issue is the global population. (Edit: We're discussing life on this planet. Colonising space obviously means that human population may continue to grow, but not on Earth and not using Earth' resou…

[deleted]

Re: Can We Have Prosperity Without Growth?

#20

Post by newsgremlin »

chii wrote: post #17
mytailorisrich wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can have sustainability and prosperity. It's a triangle: prosperity, sustainability, population. Choose 2 (and obviously if you don't choose sustainability the sh*t is going to hit the fan at some point anyway). The key issue is the global population. (Edit: We're discussing life on this planet. Colonising space obviously means that human population may continue to grow, but not on Earth and not using Earth' resou…

why can humans not expand interplanetarily? Then, inter-stellarly, then finally, inter-galactically?

We can, we just need to not burn out our resources and single planetary home before then.
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