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Tesla's self driving algorithm's overlay [video]

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Re: Tesla's self driving algorithm's overlay [video]

#321
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Self-driving cars cannot yet safely navigate complex or unusual scenarios. The human backups in test cars still have to take over with good regularity. That's not something you'd see if it were anywhere close to ready. Even with all their data, there aren't enough training examples of every situation. Deep learning models also have a tendency to be pathologically wrong in rare but completely unpredictable…

Point taken. However if you a look at statistics regarding the leading cause of accidents in the US, for example by going to https://www.after-car-accidents.com/car-accident-causes.html It seems that most accidents are caused by human error and humans being distracted or under the influence of a substance. Weather and complex situations would only rank at the bottom of the list and therefore could be considered a YAG…

Breaking those causes you linked individually:

#1 was speeding. Self driving cars would be trivially programmed not to do that, of course. But this one is tricky to interpret, because Americans habitually speed. That means two things: Speeding is trivially something that can be listed as a factor; it wouldn't be a lot less meaningful to say that bucket seats are a factor. And not speeding might actually be more dangerous. That leaves me thinking this one is equivocal for the purposes of the debate.

#s 2, 3, 4 and 6 are drunk driving, distractions, cell phones, and driver fatigue. Those are easy point for self driving cars, of course.

#5 is weather. This feels like an easy one in favor of humans, considering that all the major self driving car companies deal with weather by avoiding it. That's not much of a vote of confidence.

#6 is red light accidents. I would want to see more about override statistics before interpreting this one. It could be that self-driving cars literally never miss a red light. But, given that some of the intersections in my city have quite confusing traffic light arrangements - reflectors that make the light invisible outside of certain angles, lighted intersections spaced 40 feet apart that are separate lighted intersections nonetheless, printed signs informing drivers of non-standard semantics for that light, wildly varying yellow light durations, etc. - I have my doubts about self-driving cars being able to properly deal with the traffic lights. If there are any tests going on in a similar city, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that operator overrides are routine at lighted intersections.

Zooming out to the big picture, though - the ones that are a clear win for self-driving cars are all instances where the human's decisionmaking capacity has been impaired. Which implies that humans are really quite good at operating vehicles when they aren't being stupid. But it also implies something that I think doesn't get enough credit among many advocates of self-driving cars: the fact that, behind the wheel of every safe self-driving car, there's a highly trained human operator who is not drunk and not tired and not diddling around with their cell phone. And we've got evidence to suggest that, when the human operator is a bit more human, the self driving car's accident rate suddenly spikes considerably.

And that's a big deal. It's common to place those errors on the shoulders of the car's driver, but that's trying to have your cake and eat it too. You can't wave away every fatality involving a car on autopilot by saying, "Oh, that wasn't the car's fault, the driver was being an idiot," and also claim that we've got good evidence to suggest that we know how to make cars operate safely without relying on a human driver to act as a backstop for the fallibility of the human programmers. It may eventually come - I think we all hope it does - but given how, in AI, the last year or two's worth of R&D always ends up taking another decade or two before everyone just gives up on the whole enterprise and moves on to a greener field, a little skepticism is far from unwarranted.

Re: Tesla's self driving algorithm's overlay [video]

#322
post #140

It still strikes me why so many people are still against a future with self driving cars. Sure, people throughout history are scared of change & new tech. But if you look at this video and compare the amount of stuff the camera catches AND processes, with the things you are seeing & processing, it's really hard for me to see me being better at it than a computer. The reality of driving (as a human) is that most of it…

> I just find it very hard to understand the perspective of those that are opposed to self driving cars.

Once you observe how these things behave in severe weather, you get a little bit more perspective on why it simply can’t work. Not with today’s infrastructure, not with today’s technology, definitely not in mixed human / autonomous driver traffic.

Re: Tesla's self driving algorithm's overlay [video]

#323
post #140

It still strikes me why so many people are still against a future with self driving cars. Sure, people throughout history are scared of change & new tech. But if you look at this video and compare the amount of stuff the camera catches AND processes, with the things you are seeing & processing, it's really hard for me to see me being better at it than a computer. The reality of driving (as a human) is that most of it…

> it's really hard for me to see me being better at it than a computer There's a big difference between seeing and interpreting. The car sees literally everything and can maybe identify most things, but a pedestrian window shopping across the street isn't really that interesting and neither is a bollard. As humans, we filter out the unimportant stuff to focus on the important stuff. We can also pickup on subtle clues…

> We can also pickup on subtle clues in posture, through eye contact and even through the driving style of another person.

I think this is what a lot of people take for granted. Driving anywhere where there is another vehicle immediately becomes a social activity. There is a tacit agreement to work within the framework of the enforced driving laws, but beyond that there is a social agreement as to who is doing that. Even which driving laws we follow when and were is fluid, but relatively cohesive among drivers.

It's why pedestrians try to make eye contact with drivers. It's why drivers make eye contact when there is even an iota of ambiguity on who has the right of way. It's why almost no one drives at the posted speed on a high way and we usually go as fast as the fastest lead driver. It's why we gesture, flash our lights, honk, and sometimes curse. We've built vehicles to communicate as much as possible, but that is still not even an ounce of what we can communicate with our eyes.

And sure, when vehicles communicate with each other, that will be even better. In the meantime you've got different actors using incompatible protocols.

Re: Tesla's self driving algorithm's overlay [video]

#324
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that depends on what problem you're solving. Self-driving vehicles aren't solving mass transportation. They're solving ubiquitous personal transportation. They may also solve mass transport by being cheap, ubiquitous, and by performing an end-run around the piles of local regulation that restrict mass transit.

> the piles of local regulation that restrict mass transit Yes, that's what's stopping local governments building more mass transit, it's all those regulations imposed by the pesky local government!

Yes. Take SF, for instance.

EDIT: Rate-limited, so read response to request to elaborate below

San Francisco has multiple entities involved in the process of policy relating to transit. So, while the SF MTA and Jeffrey Tumlin may want more rail (perhaps underground), more buses, and fewer car thoroughfares there are also supervisors in charge of local districts who may oppose construction on grounds that they will hurt constituents.

As an example, supervisors David Campos and Hillary Ronen at different times opposed the bus-lanes along Mission St. on various grounds including (paraphrasing) "speeding up transit does not improve things for the local community", "the transit lanes lead to gentrification", "local merchants will see decreased foot traffic".

That's just an example and the details are too numerous to list here but consider also that the SFFD opposes Vision Zero.

Re: Tesla's self driving algorithm's overlay [video]

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile, Teslas run into the backs of car carriers because they only recognise the car it's carrying and not the truck bed extending behind it And someone rear ended me the other day because they didn't notice cars were stopping. Yes, self-driving cars make mistakes, but humans make all sorts of mistakes, too. The question is, do self driving cars have more accidents per mile (or more damage per mile/injuries per…

I feel the question is more about the responsibility and the social contract of sharing the road with fellow humans. Self-driving cars don't take risks when they make mistakes while humans are exposed to physical or legal consequences that are well understood by everyone on the road.

We already take risks of this type; cars have mechanical failures, and people die with things totally outside their control. Brakes fail, tires blow, and people have accepted these risks.

I know self driving cars feel different to us now, but they aren't really different in kind, just degree. I am sure people felt these concerns when cars were introduced in general.

Re: Tesla's self driving algorithm's overlay [video]

#326
post #314

Do all these self driving systems work with regular IR cameras? Somehow I always expected they also used some sort of depth camera to detect distances instead of figuring it out based on pixels.

Tesla uses only cameras (some color and some black and white I believe) along with a radar system and perhaps sonar? But Tesla is controversial in their approach - essentially all other self driving systems use depth sensors. Tesla makes the argument that you can actually calculate depth from moving cameras, which is true. The technique is called structure from motion and it is well understood. However a lidar is a more direct and reliable way of measuring depth accurately, so others use them.

The difference being that all Teslas manufactured in the last two years or so have this camera sensor system installed on them, so they can all be upgraded to self driving with a software or computer upgrade. No one else is shipping cars that can be self driving. So Tesla has the advantage of collecting a huge data set of real world data now, and if they get the system working they can somewhat instantly “activate” a huge self driving fleet. Other companies have more expensive sensor systems such that the price is too high to sell the vehicles (only rent as taxis), and they will have to start manufacturing vehicles after they get everything finalized.

If Tesla and Waymo perfect their systems at the same time, Tesla will be way ahead.

Re: Tesla's self driving algorithm's overlay [video]

#327
post #2

I have often wondered about this, so I do find this interesting. Of all of the info presented, one question I have is how does the AI decide when to go at a 4-way stop? In real life, I'm am constantly amazed at how confusing a 4-way stop is to humans. Not that I ever had any doubt into how complicated real-time video analysis could be, this just makes my appreciation of the complexity of the problem that much more qu…

I've wondered why cars don't have a built-in communication mechanism. I should be able to broadcast somehow (using a voice message?) to nearby cars that "I'm going now, don't go".

The system exists but nobody is buying it. Probably because if your car has it first, there will be no other cars to talk to.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=car+v2x

Re: Tesla's self driving algorithm's overlay [video]

#328
post #140

It still strikes me why so many people are still against a future with self driving cars. Sure, people throughout history are scared of change & new tech. But if you look at this video and compare the amount of stuff the camera catches AND processes, with the things you are seeing & processing, it's really hard for me to see me being better at it than a computer. The reality of driving (as a human) is that most of it…

There's no evidence that computers are any better at driving than humans, and there is no evidence that this generation of machine learning will be able to tackle this problem sufficiently. All signs point to driving requiring an understanding of what's going on around you, which this generation of ML does not provide. On the other hand, there is a lot of hype and promises being made without the results to back them…

> There's no evidence that computers are any better at driving than humans

Yes, there is.

You can debate the exact figures/circumstances, but the numbers are good, and improving all the time. Humans are just not very good at guiding tons of metal around at high speeds, which isn't very surprising when you think about it.

One accident for every 4.34 million miles is already pretty good (compared to 500k miles for humans) - if it were rolled out today across all cars it would probably save thousands of lives in the US. Yes these quarterly numbers are in the best conditions and supervised, no that doesn't invalidate them, particularly as they show dramatic improvement at the same time as they keep expanding the conditions in which autopilot functions.

There will always be a long tail, but computers are getting very close to good enough for highway driving, known truck routes, and known taxi routes.

https://electrek.co/2019/10/23/tesla-autopilot-safety-9x-saf... https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport?redirect=no

Re: Tesla's self driving algorithm's overlay [video]

#329
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The car stopping if another car goes before it brings up another issue. If self driving cars start showing up on the road and are recognizable, you'd be able to "bully" the self driving cars since you know it'll always give right away. Imagine being stuck on an on-ramp behind a car that is programmed with infinite patience and extreme risk aversion; you could be sitting there quite a while.

The human driver can always take over if the car isn't being aggressive enough. Also the feeling of "how long" is too long to wait changes a lot when you are in more of a passenger mindset.

In a Tesla, yes. But the idea is for these algorithms to work without anyone in the driver seat.

Re: Tesla's self driving algorithm's overlay [video]

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile, Teslas run into the backs of car carriers because they only recognise the car it's carrying and not the truck bed extending behind it And someone rear ended me the other day because they didn't notice cars were stopping. Yes, self-driving cars make mistakes, but humans make all sorts of mistakes, too. The question is, do self driving cars have more accidents per mile (or more damage per mile/injuries per…

> The question is, do self driving cars have more accidents per mile (or more damage per mile/injuries per mile/ deaths per mile) than human driven cars? It should matter if they have less, but in the real world it doesn't matter, because it's "scary" to be rear-ended by an unthinking machine, and business as usual to be rear-ended by a clumsy human, so people will always hold machines to a much higher standard.

Only new machines. Once we get used to them, they become 'natural' and we don't think twice about them being scary. When cars first came out, they were scary and people feared dying from them. Now, they are just normal, and we don't think twice about the thousands of people that die because of cars.
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