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Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

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Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#851
post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An autoimmune disease is a condition arising from an abnormal immune response to a normal body part. People having different opinions is normal.

People having different opinions is normal, but not all opinions are thereby valid. Promoting genocide or child abuse have a deleterious effect on people in the in the respective target groups and so we sanction such opinions because of their demonstrated harms that result from their implementation.

The problem is how people define and extrapolate what constitutes promoting genocide or child abuse is often erroneous.

For instance: some people consider anti-vax sentiment to be child abuse, but dont consider cross-sex hormone injections for young children to be child abuse (and vice versa).

Another example is how many consider the swastika to be a symbol of genocide, but give a free pass to the hammer and sickle -- even though both of these symbols' ideologies have been similarily genocidal.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#852

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's true, it is a mirror, which should be disturbing to anyone on the left who doesn't want the left to be a mirror of the right. I mean, sure, but I was meaning to make you think about your own tendency to fall into the same trap. Also, the left can scarcely avoid being a mirror of the right in many ways, given that both groups are made out of humans. The influence of ideology on social dynamics is overstated.…

Maybe not in those words, but would you agree that that is what you're saying when you demand someone be deplatformed?

Generally, I wouldn't. People may want to deplatform other individuals for a variety of reasons.

A common one is to impede the spread of ideas that they consider dangerous, because they believe that these ideas will cause human suffering down the line. Whether these ideas truly are dangerous, whether their obstruction is effective, or whether it may backfire, that's another debate. The point is that they genuinely believe these ideas to be mind-viruses of sorts, and they genuinely believe that deplatforming is an effective way to impede them. If they are correct on these counts, then their actions are justified.

There are other possible rationales. One would be concern about bandwidth: platforms have limited bandwidth and can only spread a limited number of ideas, and people also have limited bandwidth and can only be aware of a limited number of ideas. The spread of bad ideas may therefore harm us by "clogging" the system (the resurgence of flat Earthism may be the most egregious example of wasted bandwidth).

I don't mean to debate the merits of these reasons. I just mean to point out that the "deplatformers" do have well thought out rationales. And if they are wrong, which is certainly possible, they are not obviously wrong.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#853
post #480
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is that important because there are far more people reading than posting. Even if the person you're responding to isn't arguing in good faith, there are people reading the discussion with an inquisitive mind. or, see this comic: https://imgur.com/T8egYQl

Good comic! But isn't the number of people reading a problem per se? The "deniers", those who keep shifting their arguments until they've gone full circle to the starting point, are not trying to convince you- nor you are trying to convince them. They're competing with you for the attention of the reader, trying to fill the space with the illusion of an argument.

the concept is called sea lioning.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#855
Social media platforms are designed to show you content that is more likely to get you to engage with the site by sharing the content, liking it, or commenting on it.

This creates an incentive for people to write provocative and controversial content because it's one of the easiest ways to get attention, because the platform assumes that if you're getting reactions from people, your content deserves to be seen by more eyeballs.

I've thought a lot about this and I think there are many changes, mostly design changes, that would decrease toxicity on social media platforms. I think most platforms wouldn't implement these ideas because they would decrease engagement and ad revenue on their sites.

Here are some of my crazy ideas (in paragraphs because I had trouble formatting bullets):

Allow negative reactions from normal users to make content less visible to others. The advantage of a downvote system is that it takes the burden of content moderation off of moderators and puts it more on the people who consume the content most. The disadvantage of a downvote system is that often, when people are downvoted, they don't learn anything because they often don't know why they were downvoted and they have to guess. Maybe when you downvote someone, you should have to pick a reason and then a breakdown of the downvote reasons should be available transparently for everyone to see.

Content recommendation improvements. YouTube's algorithm is infamous for converting people from moderates to Neo-Nazis. Part of this is that the algorithm that shows you what video you should watch next just shows you what videos keep people watching YouTube. It makes no effort to separate news and facts from opinion and infotainment, so the lines get extremely blurry. If there were separate communities on YouTube for news on different topics, or for opinion and infotainment on various topics, it could shield people who really just want the news from being exposed to three-hour-long alt-right rants, if that is not what they were looking for in the first place.

We need more awareness of emotional manipulation on social media and news content. As an example, if a headline has the word "disturbing" in it, I would call that emotional manipulation because the headline is trying to do your thinking for you, reach conclusions for you, and tell you what to think and feel before you had a chance to read the article and digest it. Too often, we vaguely point to "education" as a way to protect people from sharing toxic content or disinformation online. The fact is that educated people are human too, just as emotional as anyone else, and are not going to be in a fact-checking mindset when they see a social media post with a headline or image that makes them feel sad, angry, or disgusted. We need a platform design that lets ordinary people flag, downvote, or otherwise participate in the fight against emotionally manipulative content.

We need to improve the moderation process so that people trust moderators more, can understand their decisions more, and can contest their decisions if necessary. I think that when a moderator removes a post, it shouldn't disappear. It should be replaced with a list of the rules that were violated for everyone to see. And moderators should be able to hide a post temporarily to give the author a chance to edit it and resubmit it. Also, the first time someone posts in a forum, when they write a comment, they should see sitewide rules and community rules right before they submit, giving them a chance to go back and revise their post. (This mainly applies to a place like Reddit, but I think a platform like Facebook would also be better off with community rules.) These changes would make it so that people understand moderation more, can see a more transparent process, will stop being surprised by moderation, and will overall have a more positive experience with moderators.

On Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube, I believe some of the problem is that the platform encourages you to follow people. When you follow personalities instead of topics, it introduces a lot of potential toxicity and content moderation problems. There's no bechmark for civility, nothing you're encouraged to talk about, just opportunities and rewards for creating drama. If these platforms made it harder to make everything oriented around personal brands, and easier to engage in communities that at least have a stated purpose, that would probably help to discourage toxicity, because in a community with a stated purpose, it's easier for a community member to say, "That type of content doesn't belong here, this community is supposed to be about x." Where x is a fairly uncontroversial topic.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#856
post #654
post #274

Discussions like this are frustrating to me because they always seem to skip over what feels like a crucial element: Do you know _why_ this uptick has happened? Does anyone? I get the feeling, in general, when people talk about wanting to "Do Something" about this sort of thing, they are always focused on managing the symptom and never focused on addressing the cause. Frequently, when I try to bring this up, the caus…

> Do you know _why_ this uptick has happened? Does anyone? Controversy drives engagement, engagement drives profits.

Exactly this. The channels through which people an anonymously communicating (also a part of the problem) are biased towards sensational and controversial content, which sends dialog down this path no matter what.

An important consideration is that many different cultures are experiencing very similar radicalization / polarization trends. The facts on the ground are quite different but the tooling by which these conversations happen is the same.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#857

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe has been categorically worse, considering the scale of antisemitism, ie. the Holocaust.

Someone else being just as bad/worse is not a valid excuse. My point is that racism and right-wing nationalism isn't something that somehow started in Europe in the last couple of decades and then came to the US. It's been there since the beginning on both sides of the Atlantic, and systematic racism in the US has been a thing since before the founding fathers put ink to paper. In addition, you can't just say "Europe…

The OP said it was a "purely American phenomenon." I proved it's not. I don't know what you're arguing, it's not relevant at all.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#858
post #51

Encourage people to participate in physical social gatherings that center around non-political issues, like hobbies. We need to start emphasizing what we have in common, help people see that ultimately we're really not all that different from each other. The internet lets people hide behind this isolating veneer that makes it too easy to just shout at each other and behave in extreme ways that would never be socially…

Throughout history there has always been a large majority class of people who were suppressed and controlled by the elites just like today. The difference is that today, the suppressed classes are comparatively highly educated and have access to limitless information. Before, this knowledge was accessible mostly by the elites. Today, the lower classes know what's going on politically and economically better than many…

Fake news is owned and created by elites though. It's meant to generate outrage to support specific political causes. The greatest deceptions it perpetuates are fear-and-scarcity-based appeals to a binary political system (elites have created a policy-bundled system where campaign finance reform never happens and lobbyism thrives). In reality there is abundance and deep commonality between working class people in America, and uncovering it is one of the information revolution's greatest threats to the control class's divisive attempts. Fake news is a tool of the elite to counteract that effect, as is any erosion of critical thought, any disinformation, any suppression of empirical science.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#859
I'm very late to this, but I wanted to say that partly the fault is on the naive assumption that search engines adopted many years ago that the information found online was mostly true if it had a lot of backlinks.

That's no longer true. If Google or Facebook don't want to censor content, then they need to change the UI and warn that some of the results contain wrong/misleading information, or even complete lies.

This fact-checking wasn't needed long ago because the pages with the most backlinks had almost always factual content.

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