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What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

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Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#191

Post by aqi »

kian wrote: post #165
pjc50 wrote: post #62

To me, it's the other way up: without UBI, there is a small number of people who die every year due to not having (sufficient) income. Usually not direct starvation, but exposure-related due to homelessness, or issues such as not being able to afford insulin. There are basically three kinds of response to this: a) they deserve it, all of them b) it's sad, but it's not our problem c) this is not acceptable and somethi…

What ever happened to d) this is not acceptable, and something should be done about it by individuals directly? Why do we need to abdicate responsibility for our local problems to a larger authority? Mutual Aid Societies and religions used to fill this gap - perhaps we can jointly invent a new modern substitute.

The problems are not fundamentally of local scope. Consider for example the coal mining towns that have been left in a state of ruin by the shift away from coal. There is no local prosperity to fund local aid there.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#192

Post by horomeme »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #143
washadjeffmad wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demotivated to work like retirees, spouses in single income households, and people who can live off the fruits of their investments like the wealthy? Perhaps they’d produce art, or seek out experiences and education that wouldn’t otherwise be afforded to them. Maybe they’d take on risk and start that business they’d always dreamed of if they weren’t taking of their parent with dementia or having to work fewer days to…

UBI will be useless unless rent seeking is eliminated with it, because the price of any good or service that profits rent seekers will be inflated almost instantly to maintain differentials. Income inequality is a problem of massively unequal political and economic power, and of insider knowledge and class-cultural arbitrage - not a problem of income. If - hypothetically - all the jobs required to provide food, shelt…

I was worried I would read the entire thread without finding the only sound answer. Thanks for proving my worries unwarranted. UBI is a farce. Redistribution of basic commodities like housing and healthcare are the answer.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#193

Post by horomeme »

enraged_camel wrote: post #183
robotresearcher wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That landlords would simply increase rent knowing renters have a larger income? This one seems a serious problem. Home sales too, since sellers know people could make larger mortgage payments. Is there a good argument for why this will not inevitably transfer much of the money to landowners?

>>Is there a good argument for why this will not inevitably transfer much of the money to landowners? I regularly rent out the guest bedroom in my house. When I do so, I do not run complex formulas to figure out what a particular tenant might be able to afford. I simply look at rents for similar units in the area, and bump it up or down slightly based on the various features and amenities the room has. I don't charge…

>Honestly, unless literally all the landlords in a city came together and colluded, you wouldn't see much increase.

The market is all the collusion necessary.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#194

Post by dragonwriter »

RivieraKid wrote: post #12

The prevailing view seems to be: robots will take our jobs, therefore we will need UBI, which allows people to live without work. The way I see it, the main problem that UBI is solving is inequality, it's a rich to poor transfer. Excessive inequality is bad because the aggregate utility goes down (rich people don't gain much from an additional dollar, so it's more effectively used by a poor person). Transfering cash…

> The way I see it, the main problem that UBI is solving is inequality, it's a rich to poor transfer.

The main problem UBI is solving is expensive duplication of function between status quo means tested social safety net programs and the tax system. A secondary problem that it can solve if benefits are tied to revenues and the right dedicated revenue stream is chosen has to do with calibration of benefits in status quo safety net programs.

> At this time, the amount of UBI should be below what allows a comfortable life, because it would lead to a feedback loop in which people would be increasingly demotivated to work.

As long as you don't automatically tie UBI to inflation this is self limiting since excessive demotivation causes critical labor shortages driving both wages and final goods prices up which (1) lowers the quality of life which can be maintained on UBI so it isn't as comfortable as the nominal benefit would seem to provide, and (2) raises the marginal benefit from chosing to work, both of which serve to negate demotivation.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#195

Post by erik_seaberg »

claudeganon wrote: post #141
sokoloff wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the failure mode? That broad swaths of society get provided a fundamental service (shelter) in a way that is profitable to the people most efficiently and effectively providing that service? I think when people approach this problem as "how do we best punish the rich ?" rather than "how do we best help the poor ?", it's very easy to get stuck spinning in circles. (IMO) No one should care that there are very ri…

The failure mode is that rentiers and middlemen will eat up all of the UBI income, leaving most people’s material standard unchanged. Given the state of healthcare and housing in the US, this doesn’t seem an improbable outcome. I’m sure, by contrast, you could do UBI in a country with robust state housing and healthcare programs, like for example Austria, and avoid these concerns.

Landlords need to compete for tenants. High rents are only tenable in hot employment markets with bad policies imposing shortages. Everywhere else, high rents lead to more construction which leads to lower rents, and the landlord who refuses the going rate sees his units go empty.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#196

Post by ta999999171 »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #149
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI will be useless unless rent seeking is eliminated with it, because the price of any good or service that profits rent seekers will be inflated almost instantly to maintain differentials. Income inequality is a problem of massively unequal political and economic power, and of insider knowledge and class-cultural arbitrage - not a problem of income. If - hypothetically - all the jobs required to provide food, shelt…

because the price of any good or service that profits rent seekers will be inflated almost instantly to maintain differentials. Which is why I'd prefer to see UBH (Universal Basic Housing).

Cool, Judge Dredd.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#197

Post by nojvek »

Rather than UBI, I think UBS (Universal Basic Services) is of far more significance. They’re not mutually exclusive.

The idea that you can give $X to everyone solves a lot of problem breaks down when the basic necessities are owned by capitalistic oligarchical corporations that resort to rent extortion.

Like US healthcare will suck in all the UBI money. It’s optimized to serve healthcare at the highest cost it can get away with.

Same with rents in most part of big cities. No new construction means money is sucked by the landlords who get ever wealthier.

The idea of universal basic services is that you can get access to most basic necessities within a reasonable capped price. Like electricity, water, cell internet connection, trash collection, groceries, transport, healthcare, education, basic housing etc.

So if the govt hands out $X00/month to every citizen, one can be guaranteed to receive the basics of their choice per their lifestyle.

As in money by itself doesn’t solve the problem, what you can buy with money solves the actual problems.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#198

Post by robotresearcher »

enraged_camel wrote: post #183
robotresearcher wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That landlords would simply increase rent knowing renters have a larger income? This one seems a serious problem. Home sales too, since sellers know people could make larger mortgage payments. Is there a good argument for why this will not inevitably transfer much of the money to landowners?

>>Is there a good argument for why this will not inevitably transfer much of the money to landowners? I regularly rent out the guest bedroom in my house. When I do so, I do not run complex formulas to figure out what a particular tenant might be able to afford. I simply look at rents for similar units in the area, and bump it up or down slightly based on the various features and amenities the room has. I don't charge…

Say every landlord followed your approach, except a single one that raised the rent due to the new income.

> I simply look at rents for similar units in the area

Iterate that and the rents rise until they reach a new, higher global equilibrium.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#199

Post by wutbrodo »

enraged_camel wrote: post #183
robotresearcher wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That landlords would simply increase rent knowing renters have a larger income? This one seems a serious problem. Home sales too, since sellers know people could make larger mortgage payments. Is there a good argument for why this will not inevitably transfer much of the money to landowners?

>>Is there a good argument for why this will not inevitably transfer much of the money to landowners? I regularly rent out the guest bedroom in my house. When I do so, I do not run complex formulas to figure out what a particular tenant might be able to afford. I simply look at rents for similar units in the area, and bump it up or down slightly based on the various features and amenities the room has. I don't charge…

> I simply look at rents for similar units in the area

? Do you think these rents are set by God or something? The fact that it's a dynamic system doesn't change the fact that the equilibrium (and thus prices) are set through supply and demand.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#200

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #149
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI will be useless unless rent seeking is eliminated with it, because the price of any good or service that profits rent seekers will be inflated almost instantly to maintain differentials. Income inequality is a problem of massively unequal political and economic power, and of insider knowledge and class-cultural arbitrage - not a problem of income. If - hypothetically - all the jobs required to provide food, shelt…

because the price of any good or service that profits rent seekers will be inflated almost instantly to maintain differentials. Which is why I'd prefer to see UBH (Universal Basic Housing).

Universal Basic Housing just sounds like ghettos with extra steps.
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