Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

appleinsider.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

481–490 of 525 posts

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#481

Post by brmgb »

djannzjkzxn wrote: post #270
SiempreViernes wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read "charger" to mean "the thing you use for charging", and not really bothering with the technical detail of exactly how this thing is made. I think reading the texts as if they spoke only of the transformer/brick itself is to narrow, and not in line with the common understanding of what a "charger" is. I will offer this suggestion of a precise definition for "charger": the complete technological assemblage requi…

You can define the charger to include the cable, and I can define the phone to include the cable. Either way it doesn’t provide much insight into the definitions with legal force.

That's not how it works. What the lawmakers mean is pretty clear as soon as you go read the documents affixed to the motion. There is no need for more boilerplate.

The 2018 Comission report has this to say on the subject for example :

The study has, in particular, provided the following information and conclusions: even manufacturers of mobile phones which did not sign up to the Memorandum of Understanding appear to have also adopted Micro-USB charging solutions, leading to the indication that almost 100% of data enabled phones sold in Europe in 2013 were compliant with Micro-USB charging solution.; due to the Memorandum of Understanding, it is estimated to have resulted in six to 21 million fewer standalone chargers over the period 2011 to 2013; the increasing prevalence of Micro-USB charging has limited the need to purchase standalone chargers and consequently reduced the use of raw materials than might otherwise have been the case.

Since the previous experience of the Memorandum of Understanding had proven to be successful for the reasons mentioned above, the Commission wished to continue the approach already followed based on a voluntary agreement. Moreover, a voluntary solution could more readily accommodate new technology and innovation compared to a regulatory option. Additionally, a voluntary approach may have had the advantage of having a wider scope, compared to the regulatory option, for example, it may have covered both ends of the charging cable 79 .

However, given the unsatisfactory outcome so far of the progress in the voluntary option, the Commission will shortly launch a study to assess costs and benefits of different options, including the regulatory one.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#482

Post by scarface74 »

wsy wrote: post #480
scarface74 wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I am saying is simple. Giving the government more power without a compelling reason is always detrimental. Making things a little more convenient is not compelling. But why stop at the connector? Why not force Apple to make AirDrop, FaceTime interoperable? Why not force Apple to port iCloud backups to Android or force Apple to allow backups to third party providers?

I think we have to agree to disagree. I assume that you are not living in the EU. Our experiences here with governmental regulation are not so bad. Companies are complaining, but consumers are not. Making things a little more convenient for everybody is super-compelling if there is no downside. Freedom for humans is an extremely high value. However, companies are not humans, there is no inherent benefit in giving the…

No countries did not regulate mobile phone transmissions. The US licenses bandwidth to different companies but did not legislate the protocols. That’s why in the US you had things like push to talk and Sprints aborted 4G non LTE protocol. The market killed it - not the government.

As far as not being able to escape, before 2007-2010, everyone feared the Windows lock-in, technology and the market made that not as big of a fear. Before that it was IBM.

By the time the slow moving government finally made a decision about IBM’s mainframe monopoly that it started in the 60s - in the mid 80s - the market had made the case irrelevant.

As far as everyone liking the files of the EU - see Brexit.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#483

Post by wsy »

scarface74 wrote: post #482
wsy wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we have to agree to disagree. I assume that you are not living in the EU. Our experiences here with governmental regulation are not so bad. Companies are complaining, but consumers are not. Making things a little more convenient for everybody is super-compelling if there is no downside. Freedom for humans is an extremely high value. However, companies are not humans, there is no inherent benefit in giving the…

No countries did not regulate mobile phone transmissions. The US licenses bandwidth to different companies but did not legislate the protocols. That’s why in the US you had things like push to talk and Sprints aborted 4G non LTE protocol. The market killed it - not the government. As far as not being able to escape, before 2007-2010, everyone feared the Windows lock-in, technology and the market made that not as big…

Windows was lock-in in late 90s and early 2000s. That was not only a fear. EU forced Microsoft to open Windows during that time. And that was a good thing. I don't want to wait decades until that stuff is sorted out by obsolescence.

Where is the advantage in waiting for the market?

However, no one forces you to live in the EU. Even countries can exit it. Let us do our thing, and you can do your thing. The market will sort it out :-)

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#484

Post by alt_f4 »

kortilla wrote: post #458
alt_f4 wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And iPhone sales a drop in the bucket compared to Android phone sales. And they all have USB-C.

Not sure you know what the phrase “drop in the bucket” means.

not sure if you're a fucking idiot. oh, wait, I am sure. you are a fucking idiot.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#485

Post by scarface74 »

wsy wrote: post #483
scarface74 wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No countries did not regulate mobile phone transmissions. The US licenses bandwidth to different companies but did not legislate the protocols. That’s why in the US you had things like push to talk and Sprints aborted 4G non LTE protocol. The market killed it - not the government. As far as not being able to escape, before 2007-2010, everyone feared the Windows lock-in, technology and the market made that not as big…

Windows was lock-in in late 90s and early 2000s. That was not only a fear. EU forced Microsoft to open Windows during that time. And that was a good thing. I don't want to wait decades until that stuff is sorted out by obsolescence. Where is the advantage in waiting for the market? However, no one forces you to live in the EU. Even countries can exit it. Let us do our thing, and you can do your thing. The market will…

EU had no affect on the browser wars. How do you explain that Chrome took over in the US. Again, Google made a better browser while Microsoft was sleep at the wheel.

Microsoft is just as dominant with Office and desktop PCs as it was in the 90s. The web and then mobile just made the desktop less relevant.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#486

Post by ClumsyPilot »

scarface74 wrote: post #224
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure I understand your argument "my toaster does not have a standard connector, so neither should my iphone"? I mean, maybe they should, or maybe none cares to regulate toasters. Or maybe its only relevant to portable electronics, so laptops should have them but toasters shouldn't. Think a bit broader - if apple wants to introduce a new phone communication standard, like 5g but different? It can't - frequenc…

If Apple introduced a phone that didn’t comply with the 5G standard it wouldn’t be able to interoperate and would be less useful. But the government didn’t mandate that iMessage had to be compatible with SMS (even though it is somewhat) nor did they mandate that AirDrop had to interoperate with a standard. Should the government also mandate a standard messaging protocol must be used or that it has to work with SMS? S…

Apple would not even be allowed to sell a phone that had a standard it invented in house, as it would cause interference with other radio equipment.

Radio frequencies are some of the most strictly regulated things on the planet, and misusing them will land you in jail in most countries.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#487

Post by scarface74 »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #486
scarface74 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Apple introduced a phone that didn’t comply with the 5G standard it wouldn’t be able to interoperate and would be less useful. But the government didn’t mandate that iMessage had to be compatible with SMS (even though it is somewhat) nor did they mandate that AirDrop had to interoperate with a standard. Should the government also mandate a standard messaging protocol must be used or that it has to work with SMS? S…

Apple would not even be allowed to sell a phone that had a standard it invented in house, as it would cause interference with other radio equipment. Radio frequencies are some of the most strictly regulated things on the planet, and misusing them will land you in jail in most countries.

The right to use radio frequencies are auctioned by the government. If Apple bought the rights to use the frequencies it could do whatever it wanted with them.

For instance, Sprint had WiMAX for 4G before they had LTE, two carriers have GSM and two have CDMA. The government didn’t mandate the protocols nor did they force the carriers to use the same protocol or the phone makers to support both.

You also had the proprietary Nextel push to talk.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#488

Post by dhxudkwjwhh »

atoav wrote: post #357
freepor wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why does the EU bureaucracy know that charging ports cannot be an important part of product differentiation? I would hope they wouldn’t legislate a common screen size or a common operating system... why legislate a common charging port? I STRONGLY prefer Lightning and would hope that people who prefer Lightning like me can buy Apple and people who prefer USB-C can buy Android.

Because the EU isn't there to pamper big corporations, it is there to strengthen the rights of consumers and citizens by strengthening competition. If your company can't survive without selling adapters or locking in customers with unnecessary differing standards (and therefor avoiding competition), maybe it isn't really healthy to begin with. I would have a different perspective if there was really a practical reaso…

How is there no practical reason? The practical reason is implied by context. Apple is among the single most profitable companies in existence, consumers vote with their wallets and their wallets overwhelmingly vote in a manner that supports Apple's decisions. It's a very European thing to point at the purpose of a government entity and assume it's true. Helping consumers? If consumers prefer universal cable standards then they'll favor products with cross compatability standards. The only people who benefit from this government intervention are the EU businesses that can't be bothered to examine themselves long enough to find a way to compete effectively. This sort of disconnected legislation is just another reason the EU has lost significance as an innovator, they'd rather settle for a comfortable and unchallenging norm.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#489

Post by djannzjkzxn »

brmgb wrote: post #481
djannzjkzxn wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can define the charger to include the cable, and I can define the phone to include the cable. Either way it doesn’t provide much insight into the definitions with legal force.

That's not how it works. What the lawmakers mean is pretty clear as soon as you go read the documents affixed to the motion. There is no need for more boilerplate. The 2018 Comission report has this to say on the subject for example : The study has, in particular, provided the following information and conclusions: even manufacturers of mobile phones which did not sign up to the Memorandum of Understanding appear to…

If the report is saying almost 100% of phones sold follow the reg, then they must be saying Apple are in compliance, right? I don’t see how you can get near 100% of phones without including the iPhone.

Also, take a look here:

> Additionally, a voluntary approach may have had the advantage of having a wider scope, compared to the regulatory option, for example, it may have covered both ends of the charging cable.

>However, given the unsatisfactory outcome so far of the progress in the voluntary option, the Commission will shortly launch a study to assess costs and benefits of different options, including the regulatory one.

This seems to say fairly clearly that only a voluntary option would cover both ends of the cable. Then it says they are looking at the regulatory option instead of the voluntary option. It doesn’t seem to contemplate a non-voluntary regulation covering both ends of the cable.

I don’t think I’m being pedantic or obtuse here, just reading the doc plainly.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#490

Post by dang »

kortilla wrote: post #458
alt_f4 wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And iPhone sales a drop in the bucket compared to Android phone sales. And they all have USB-C.

Not sure you know what the phrase “drop in the bucket” means.

Please don't post unsubstantive comments here. Especially not personal swipes.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Post reply on HN