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What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

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Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#181

Post by robotresearcher »

bhl wrote: post #176
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI will be useless unless rent seeking is eliminated with it, because the price of any good or service that profits rent seekers will be inflated almost instantly to maintain differentials. Income inequality is a problem of massively unequal political and economic power, and of insider knowledge and class-cultural arbitrage - not a problem of income. If - hypothetically - all the jobs required to provide food, shelt…

> UBI will be useless unless rent seeking is eliminated with it, because the price of any good or service that profits rent seekers will be inflated almost instantly to maintain differentials. I've heard this concern before, but what's the assumption that is being made? That UBI will drive more people to cities and increase demand? That landlords would simply increase rent knowing renters have a larger income? That p…

> That landlords would simply increase rent knowing renters have a larger income?

This one seems a serious problem. Home sales too, since sellers know people could make larger mortgage payments.

Is there a good argument for why this will not inevitably transfer much of the money to landowners?

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#182

Post by duhejsusjdkd »

RivieraKid wrote: post #12

The prevailing view seems to be: robots will take our jobs, therefore we will need UBI, which allows people to live without work. The way I see it, the main problem that UBI is solving is inequality, it's a rich to poor transfer. Excessive inequality is bad because the aggregate utility goes down (rich people don't gain much from an additional dollar, so it's more effectively used by a poor person). Transfering cash…

>The prevailing view seems to be: robots will take our jobs, therefore we will need UBI, which allows people to live without work.

This is the prevailing view among technologists, a group that includes large swathes of romantic people who view themselves as something akin to wizards. Meanwhile, mainstream economics just sees a lot of business as usual.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#183

Post by enraged_camel »

robotresearcher wrote: post #181
bhl wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> UBI will be useless unless rent seeking is eliminated with it, because the price of any good or service that profits rent seekers will be inflated almost instantly to maintain differentials. I've heard this concern before, but what's the assumption that is being made? That UBI will drive more people to cities and increase demand? That landlords would simply increase rent knowing renters have a larger income? That p…

> That landlords would simply increase rent knowing renters have a larger income? This one seems a serious problem. Home sales too, since sellers know people could make larger mortgage payments. Is there a good argument for why this will not inevitably transfer much of the money to landowners?

>>Is there a good argument for why this will not inevitably transfer much of the money to landowners?

I regularly rent out the guest bedroom in my house. When I do so, I do not run complex formulas to figure out what a particular tenant might be able to afford. I simply look at rents for similar units in the area, and bump it up or down slightly based on the various features and amenities the room has. I don't charge a corporate executive higher rent than I charge a college student. Their ability to pay is not relevant.

You might be thinking "okay, but what if everyone's income went up in an UBI scenario?" Honestly, unless literally all the landlords in a city came together and colluded, you wouldn't see much increase, because we would have the same level of competition we have today.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#184

Post by mr_toad »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #104
jakelazaroff wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t read the article, so forgive me if that’s backed by research rather than just anecdata, but… is that really an issue people would have? I would love UBI, because it would transform what I could do with my time. Instead of working 9–5 on software for a company, I could build whatever I want. There are tons of app ideas floating around in my head that I just don’t have time to build. And I could release them fo…

> " ...is that really an issue people would have? " Hell, yes. There are a vast number of low-education people with what the HN crowd would call "old fashioned attitudes". From https://archive.is/CCTXs#selection-1205.100-1205.363 : " 'Being a man means supporting your family,' says Mr Davis. 'You’ve got to do whatever it takes so they eat, [or] you’re no man at all.' Being a man, says Mr Redden, means you 'work hard,…

> Funny, then why aren't people on public assistance already doing all these things you imagine?

If you’re on a sickness benefit you’re supposed to be too sick to work. If you’re on an unemployment benefit you’re supposed to be finding a job. If you spend most of your time doing volunteer work you’ll probably lose your benefit.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#185

Post by LeoTinnitus »

ryandvm wrote: post #170
washadjeffmad wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demotivated to work like retirees, spouses in single income households, and people who can live off the fruits of their investments like the wealthy? Perhaps they’d produce art, or seek out experiences and education that wouldn’t otherwise be afforded to them. Maybe they’d take on risk and start that business they’d always dreamed of if they weren’t taking of their parent with dementia or having to work fewer days to…

> Perhaps they’d produce art, or seek out experiences and education that wouldn’t otherwise be afforded to them. Honestly, I find this idea laughable. If the last 10 years have taught me anything, it's that people will spend every spare minute they have staring at their phones or streaming TV.

I have to totalky disagree. Look at GPL, DeviantArt, Twitch, steam mods. People will labor for free for the purpose of leisure or enjoyment. While those people are in a minority in terms of population since most consume as opposed to produce with an actual skill.

I think if the culture was ingrained to gain a source of prestige based off of what they contribute for free, that would incentivize people to pursue those Nobel endeavors. But that sort of culture shift would take Star trek levels of time to get to.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#186

Post by ablekh »

silvestrov wrote: post #49
RivieraKid wrote: post #12

The prevailing view seems to be: robots will take our jobs, therefore we will need UBI, which allows people to live without work. The way I see it, the main problem that UBI is solving is inequality, it's a rich to poor transfer. Excessive inequality is bad because the aggregate utility goes down (rich people don't gain much from an additional dollar, so it's more effectively used by a poor person). Transfering cash…

Food is not enough. People also want a purpose with their life where they are important for other people. Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month. Such a person has enough money for food, good apartment, etc. All what UBI wants to provide. But many of these people end up depressed, inactive, feels like a failure, etc. Many just give completely up.…

I agree with you that purpose in life is very important. However, your assumption above about Denmark is not supported by The World Happiness Report (https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2019): both in 2019 and 2018, Denmark was at the very top (the 2nd place, after Finland). One could argue that many, if not the most, people, not having to work or having to work less at a normal job, might very well express themselves (and contribute significant societal value) by participating in entrepreneurship, innovation, part-time employment, creative arts & crafts, caring for their kids and/or senior family members, volunteering and much more.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#188

Post by seibelj »

ZhuanXia wrote: post #90
seibelj wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, technology enhancements (which are not “AI”) have increased productivity, allowing less people to create more value. Where is the widespread unemployment?

There is a notion in economics of complements and replacements. The plow was a complement to horse labour, while the gas engine was a replacement. The former increased demand for horses while the latter basicly eliminated it. If we truly had human-level AI, labour models predict human wages would decline below subsistence. However, applying these labour models in a regime where we have AGI makes little sense, as all…

This is operating under the assumption that AGI is going to happen anytime soon. It may never happen. All of these studies and worries are intellectual masturbation.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#189

Post by retsibsi »

silvestrov wrote: post #49
RivieraKid wrote: post #12

The prevailing view seems to be: robots will take our jobs, therefore we will need UBI, which allows people to live without work. The way I see it, the main problem that UBI is solving is inequality, it's a rich to poor transfer. Excessive inequality is bad because the aggregate utility goes down (rich people don't gain much from an additional dollar, so it's more effectively used by a poor person). Transfering cash…

Food is not enough. People also want a purpose with their life where they are important for other people. Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month. Such a person has enough money for food, good apartment, etc. All what UBI wants to provide. But many of these people end up depressed, inactive, feels like a failure, etc. Many just give completely up.…

> Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month. Such a person has enough money for food, good apartment, etc. All what UBI wants to provide.

> But many of these people end up depressed, inactive, feels like a failure, etc. Many just give completely up.

How would these people feel without the money, though? Presumably this group is at high risk for depression to begin with, and alleviating their material deprivation may well be doing a lot of good, even if their average life satisfaction is still not great. (This doesn't mean there's no better way, but I would be really wary of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good here.)

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#190

Post by aqi »

ksec wrote: post #142

Let us forget about whether UBI or Negative Income Tax works or not. Let's just say we will implement it by 2025. Who is to decide the amount of that? How will it be decided when living cost is greatly ( or literally ) dependent on property pricing? Hence different location will have different living cost. Food, as in raw material assuming you cook yourself which is the cheapest option, could varies from state or eve…

The US doesn't have a shortage of land or housing. Rather, the concentration of jobs in big cities induces localized shortages. UBI would actually make it feasible to move to areas with lower living costs, decentralizing demand for housing and pushing rent down in big cities while stimulating the economies of less densely-populated regions.
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