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What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

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Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#171

Post by beerandt »

sykick wrote: post #111
marcosdumay wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you automate production, prices go down. That's something that can be verified empirically, and hardly anybody will disagree. But when you automate the entire economy, prices should go down towards zero nearly everywhere¹ - that's because when capital freely creates capital, all restrictions on production and competition become meaningless. When you automate the entire economy, salaries also go down toward zero.…

Do you mean that production costs (prices) go down with automation or that the selling price to consumers goes down? If you meant the latter this is wrong. The selling price depends on the pricing power that the producer has. Consider for example monopolistic pricing power, cartel pricing power, and regulatory capture.

Also, for marginal prices to approach 0, you need a true commodity.

Even if this happens for most other needs / products, housing isn't a commodity, and I expect won't ever be. It will generally be demand driven in terms of relative housing costs, and if you're of the mindset that inequality in and of itself is the problem, the lowest tier housing will never be enough, no matter how sufficient.

Which will just lead to a larger part of newly disposable income being spent on housing.

We already know people pay based on what they can afford.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#172

Post by Smoosh »

ryandvm wrote: post #170
washadjeffmad wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demotivated to work like retirees, spouses in single income households, and people who can live off the fruits of their investments like the wealthy? Perhaps they’d produce art, or seek out experiences and education that wouldn’t otherwise be afforded to them. Maybe they’d take on risk and start that business they’d always dreamed of if they weren’t taking of their parent with dementia or having to work fewer days to…

> Perhaps they’d produce art, or seek out experiences and education that wouldn’t otherwise be afforded to them. Honestly, I find this idea laughable. If the last 10 years have taught me anything, it's that people will spend every spare minute they have staring at their phones or streaming TV.

So, the demand for entertainment such as streaming TV increases, and provides a larger marketplace for the actual content producers.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#173

Post by dchyrdvh »

It's to prevent armed riots when millions of people have no means to exist. It's definitely not to empower people to let them take more risk, start a business or anything like that. For this reason, UBI will be just enough to pay for cheapest food and cheapest housing. And if someone dares to take risks, start a business or just work, that someone will be stripped from UBI, only to prevent such activity. In the era of automation and AI, the rich don't need these millions of hyper active men who have a lot of spare time, and since they can't just eliminate them, they'll create a system in which any activity is discouraged. Call me cynical, but I'll be really surprised if I happen to be wrong.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#174

Post by flukus »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #143
washadjeffmad wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demotivated to work like retirees, spouses in single income households, and people who can live off the fruits of their investments like the wealthy? Perhaps they’d produce art, or seek out experiences and education that wouldn’t otherwise be afforded to them. Maybe they’d take on risk and start that business they’d always dreamed of if they weren’t taking of their parent with dementia or having to work fewer days to…

UBI will be useless unless rent seeking is eliminated with it, because the price of any good or service that profits rent seekers will be inflated almost instantly to maintain differentials. Income inequality is a problem of massively unequal political and economic power, and of insider knowledge and class-cultural arbitrage - not a problem of income. If - hypothetically - all the jobs required to provide food, shelt…

> because the price of any good or service that profits rent seekers will be inflated almost instantly to maintain differentials.

Only if there is insufficient competition to keep prices down and the market is already broken, which is the case in some areas but not most. In the more notable cases like housing UBI still helps by freeing people to live anywhere instead of cities with plentiful jobs, and even that is largely an artificial problem in developed countries with birth rates below replacement levels.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#175

Post by pjc50 »

lixtra wrote: post #164
pjc50 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conversely, if we take 1% of a return on a capital asset, the owner spent zero hours labor for that, so they've lost none of their life ...

Except someone spend labor to amass that capital. If I considered saving no longer worthwhile, I wouldn’t consume more. I would work less and enjoy more free time. Of course this leads to over proportional less taxes for the state or ubi. I don’t see why you couldn’t try ubi in small scale by the fans. The most obvious reason why it wouldn’t work on small scale and only on state or global level is because supporters…

> is because supporters want someone else to pay for it.

Yes, obviously? Preferably the people with more than one megayacht?

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#176

Post by bhl »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #143
washadjeffmad wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demotivated to work like retirees, spouses in single income households, and people who can live off the fruits of their investments like the wealthy? Perhaps they’d produce art, or seek out experiences and education that wouldn’t otherwise be afforded to them. Maybe they’d take on risk and start that business they’d always dreamed of if they weren’t taking of their parent with dementia or having to work fewer days to…

UBI will be useless unless rent seeking is eliminated with it, because the price of any good or service that profits rent seekers will be inflated almost instantly to maintain differentials. Income inequality is a problem of massively unequal political and economic power, and of insider knowledge and class-cultural arbitrage - not a problem of income. If - hypothetically - all the jobs required to provide food, shelt…

> UBI will be useless unless rent seeking is eliminated with it, because the price of any good or service that profits rent seekers will be inflated almost instantly to maintain differentials.

I've heard this concern before, but what's the assumption that is being made? That UBI will drive more people to cities and increase demand? That landlords would simply increase rent knowing renters have a larger income? That people's long term expectations of inflation changes?

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#177

Post by manigandham »

iso947 wrote: post #105
paulgb wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a static system. Guaranteeing an income to everyone in those cheap areas could also have the effect of creating jobs in those areas because people would have money to spend.

They could. Or those areas could dissolve in a spiral of depression and alcoholism

That assumes these people are incapable of ever being productive. That's a different issue then just missing the economic opportunities to allow the communities to grow.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#178

Post by naravara »

marcosdumay wrote: post #66
meddlepal wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the current proposals for UBI seem to be talking about relatively modest anounts of income... between 10-15K a year... that's not going to go very far unless the cost of rent, essentials, and services drops dramatically. The reality is if we end up with a large amount of people that are not working then our economy is going to be totally hosed because it runs on consumption. If people don't have the money to cons…

When you automate production, prices go down. That's something that can be verified empirically, and hardly anybody will disagree. But when you automate the entire economy, prices should go down towards zero nearly everywhere¹ - that's because when capital freely creates capital, all restrictions on production and competition become meaningless. When you automate the entire economy, salaries also go down toward zero.…

> that's because when capital freely creates capital, all restrictions on production and competition become meaningless.

Not at all. There are still plenty of limited factors in the production function. The capital itself isn’t unlimited, so you need to price in opportunity costs for using it. Much of the capital needs to support people providing services, so you’re still limited by the labor force for doing things that people prefer having humans do, like knowledge work or personal services.

And then you have to contend with the fact that resources are finite and capacity to extract them is too. We’re a very long way away from automated labor being so effective and so ubiquitous that it fully realizes all the benefits you’re talking about.

In the foreseeable future, it’ll probably be rather unpleasant as shitty robots replace competent humans, meaning the quality of services and products we get are bad but the good versions are prohibitively expensive. And the jobs making things start going away so nobody has the money income to get quality versions of things.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#179

Post by m0zg »

RivieraKid wrote: post #12

The prevailing view seems to be: robots will take our jobs, therefore we will need UBI, which allows people to live without work. The way I see it, the main problem that UBI is solving is inequality, it's a rich to poor transfer. Excessive inequality is bad because the aggregate utility goes down (rich people don't gain much from an additional dollar, so it's more effectively used by a poor person). Transfering cash…

UBI is the typical "utopia" style thinking that's been the cause of most problems in the history of the world. The reason why this is problematic is because when you promise an utopia, the ends will justify _any_ means, including the destruction of the very economic system with which the United States has reached unprecedented levels of economic development and prosperity.

_If_ the world saw a significant increase in the amount of automation in the foreseeable future, which is by no means certain at all, a less "utopian" solution would be shorter work weeks, and more guaranteed days off IMO. That would create more jobs than there are people and lead to the increase of the minimum wage through market mechanisms. It has to be coupled with Trump-style protectionist trade policy to be viable, however.

Being idle is not a healthy way to live. Being (much) less busy while still being able to support yourself is.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#180

Post by bumby »

lopmotr wrote: post #127
jakelazaroff wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t read the article, so forgive me if that’s backed by research rather than just anecdata, but… is that really an issue people would have? I would love UBI, because it would transform what I could do with my time. Instead of working 9–5 on software for a company, I could build whatever I want. There are tons of app ideas floating around in my head that I just don’t have time to build. And I could release them fo…

This is a really popular opinion among programmers. I used to have that too. I've met people with that. But I don't think it's true. Somehow the people who believe it all happen to also have jobs and not enough time for hobbies, or are retired professionals, and even then only a few. When I've had periods without work, my motivation went with it. Doing things seems to make you want to do more things. Part of it might…

>Uselessness is an awful thing for humans.

One of the most lingering takeaways from Sebastian Junger’s book “Tribe” for me is how being a valued member of ones society is necessary for mental health. I worry that without addressing those other aspects of mental health, UBI can easily funnel into societal troubles like substance abuse as opposed to creative efforts

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