Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

perell.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 238 posts

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#121

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

mdorazio wrote: post #113
iso947 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So those in cheap areas with no jobs can never move to the areas with jobs?

I'm not sure how you got that from what I said. There's nothing preventing people from moving out of those areas and getting jobs elsewhere. In fact, there would be a pretty strong incentive to hire those people because they would likely be willing to work for less than incumbent locals, which is pretty much the system we already have in place for many kinds of labor (not to mention outsourcing to cheap labor areas i…

> "There's nothing preventing people from moving out of those areas and getting jobs elsewhere"

How about family ties? How about ties to their friends and community? These are human beings you are talking about, not robots. At a time when societal problems relating to atomization are increasingly evident (e.g. https://psmag.com/social-justice/americans-are-staying-as-fa...), we hardly need to encourage more of it.

> "UBI should only enable people to subsist on government income if they are willing to live in cheap areas with not-so-comfortable living conditions."

Oooh, yes. We could also give these cheap areas with not-so-comfortable living conditions some snazzy label like, say, "ghetto", "favela" or "slum". /s

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#122

Post by david38 »

basch wrote: post #114
RivieraKid wrote: post #12

The prevailing view seems to be: robots will take our jobs, therefore we will need UBI, which allows people to live without work. The way I see it, the main problem that UBI is solving is inequality, it's a rich to poor transfer. Excessive inequality is bad because the aggregate utility goes down (rich people don't gain much from an additional dollar, so it's more effectively used by a poor person). Transfering cash…

>Transfering cash directly is the most efficient way of decreasing inequality Is there any evidence for this? Is there evidence the money won't go right back into the lottery, consumption of unhealthy food, other vices, or right back into increased rent? What percentage of people will turn around and commit to an unnecessary more expensive car payment? If you hand people cash, but don't correct a lack of financial kn…

It doesn’t even have to go to vices.

Suppose 50% of the population is on UBI. Those 50% all need housing. What do you think the probability of the market generating optimal housing is? I’m guessing close to zero.

Planned housing can do far better.

The same with food. Let’s assume part of UBI is given as food stamps and only certain items qualify for use of food stamps. Combine this with required education (class you must attend to get UBI) and the quality of food consumed can increase significantly, helping to lower obesity and all the related problems.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#124

Post by danaris »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #104
jakelazaroff wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t read the article, so forgive me if that’s backed by research rather than just anecdata, but… is that really an issue people would have? I would love UBI, because it would transform what I could do with my time. Instead of working 9–5 on software for a company, I could build whatever I want. There are tons of app ideas floating around in my head that I just don’t have time to build. And I could release them fo…

> " ...is that really an issue people would have? " Hell, yes. There are a vast number of low-education people with what the HN crowd would call "old fashioned attitudes". From https://archive.is/CCTXs#selection-1205.100-1205.363 : " 'Being a man means supporting your family,' says Mr Davis. 'You’ve got to do whatever it takes so they eat, [or] you’re no man at all.' Being a man, says Mr Redden, means you 'work hard,…

I think the problem with this is that UBI is being given within the existing system of work-for-hire, rather than as part of a transition to a post-scarcity economy.

In the current system, if you want to do X, you have to prove to the people who are willing to pay you a living wage/market rate to do X that you are worth hiring to do it.

Under a (hypothetical) post-scarcity system, if you want to do X, you find a group that's working on X and say you want to spend some of your time working on it, and you do it, possibly getting trained first if you don't yet have all the skills needed. Depending on the particular work and/or the particular system that's been implemented, either your financial needs are entirely taken care of by the UBI, or you get the UBI and then you may get paid some extra to do X—but the amount you would be paid to do it would be determined by completely different factors than under today's system.

This more-or-less eliminates the gap between what people want to do with their time and what society will let them do with it...though it will still require a cultural shift away from the idea of the Rugged Individualist Man Providing For His Otherwise Helpless Woman And Children With Nothing But The Sweat Of His Brow.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#125

Post by basch »

david38 wrote: post #122
basch wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Transfering cash directly is the most efficient way of decreasing inequality Is there any evidence for this? Is there evidence the money won't go right back into the lottery, consumption of unhealthy food, other vices, or right back into increased rent? What percentage of people will turn around and commit to an unnecessary more expensive car payment? If you hand people cash, but don't correct a lack of financial kn…

It doesn’t even have to go to vices. Suppose 50% of the population is on UBI. Those 50% all need housing. What do you think the probability of the market generating optimal housing is? I’m guessing close to zero. Planned housing can do far better. The same with food. Let’s assume part of UBI is given as food stamps and only certain items qualify for use of food stamps. Combine this with required education (class you…

Plus with some foods, like leafy greens, the "food stamp" could be unlimited consumption. Instead of giving people $300/m for food, just say: from this day forward all spinach, broccoli, Brussel sprouts, peas, beans are fully covered. Eat to your hearts content. A reverse sin tax. Subsidize things more the healthier they are.

I'm obviously cynical about regulatory capture and dairy, livestock, etc industries lobbying to get their products certified as healthier than they are. With pizza being a vegetable and all now.

I hate the argument that the market will correct with low income housing. The presence of housing alone isn't the problem, it's the desirability of the location and access to infrastructure like groceries and hospitals. Low income housing thrown on the edge of a city causes ghettos. Creating a livable are requires some level of more complex urban planning.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#126

Post by nightski »

sokoloff wrote: post #116
nightski wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to rethink reward structures in this country. The fact that an investor can put up some capital and then gain "dividends" for as long as a company exists is ludicrous to me. They aren't actively doing anything to earn those dividends. It's simply a scheme to reward those with capital and assets. Meanwhile, the employees who work hard to contribute to GDP and grow the company see a fixed salary. They do not se…

> The fact that an investor can put up some capital and then gain "dividends" for as long as a company exists is ludicrous to me. This (and other forms of return) is the motivation for the investor to put up the initial capital. Do you have an alternative proposal to handle the common case where someone who wants to work hard and innovate needs capital to do so?

My proposal would simply be to make it a legal obligation for all companies to provide ownership in the company proportional to salary each year they are employed. Not only that, it's a special type of stock which is paid dividends on profits before external shareholders. This stock should have exclusive premium benefits over any other stock. A lot of thought would need to be put into how to structure this so it could not be gamed.

External shareholders could still see a return. But I think the days of seeing massive returns on capital need to be over. It should be a fight just to beat inflation imho.

To be honest though I'm still thinking about this a lot and don't have an exact answer. So this idea is in flux. That doesn't mean it's not a problem though.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#127

Post by lopmotr »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #87
silvestrov wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Food is not enough. People also want a purpose with their life where they are important for other people. Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month. Such a person has enough money for food, good apartment, etc. All what UBI wants to provide. But many of these people end up depressed, inactive, feels like a failure, etc. Many just give completely up.…

I can’t read the article, so forgive me if that’s backed by research rather than just anecdata, but… is that really an issue people would have? I would love UBI, because it would transform what I could do with my time. Instead of working 9–5 on software for a company, I could build whatever I want. There are tons of app ideas floating around in my head that I just don’t have time to build. And I could release them fo…

This is a really popular opinion among programmers. I used to have that too. I've met people with that. But I don't think it's true. Somehow the people who believe it all happen to also have jobs and not enough time for hobbies, or are retired professionals, and even then only a few. When I've had periods without work, my motivation went with it. Doing things seems to make you want to do more things. Part of it might be that if you have all the time you need, then you have to stop fantasizing and actually do it, which is of course less fun and more tedious than the fantasy, so what's the point if the reward of good feelings diminishes the more you do? But there's also something about being busy making you more busy.

Some people can work productively on their hobbies without a job kicking them in the pants every morning. But those people are so motivated, they're going to be doing real jobs anyway!

I live in a country with generous social welfare. Nobody is really too poor to pursue hobbies while unemployed. But they don't seem to be doing it. They do drugs instead. They probably feel useless and bad about life. Having a free house and food and healthcare doesn't help. We have a high suicide rate. Uselessness is an awful thing for humans.

Where is all the long term unemployed people's open source software and apps and arts? There's no shortage of unemployed people and those hobbies cost almost zero money, just time. So why aren't we already flooded with them? Or are we?

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#128

Post by ww520 »

Currently new money is injected into the economy via the banks. The hope is that banks lend out the money to create new jobs. But that route is increasingly difficult because more money goes into assets to inflate them instead of creating jobs and services.

UBI is another way to inject money into the system, giving it to the people who would most likely spend it, creating demand and this spurring the economy.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#129

Post by akvadrako »

There are several points of UBI according to me:

1) It simplifies the social support system and makes it more market oriented. Maybe it doesn't eliminate needs-based support totally, but that's a good goal. Need-based support creates bad incentives because it encourages people to be needy.

2) It gives people freedom to take risks and pursue what they find important. Right now many people do pointless work; sometimes this is even supported by society. All work should be meaningful, otherwise it shouldn't be done.

3) Personally, I would like to spend my time developing open-source software. That isn't sustainable without a UBI. UBI could fix the open-source funding model.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#130

Post by akvadrako »

knowtheory wrote: post #61

It's very strange to call a proposal (negative income tax) made by economists as orthodox and central to 20th century conservative politics as Milton Freedman as _utopian_. But even beyond the aspirations of a UBI/negative income tax, the real problem with any such proposal will be implementation and policy details which most UBI proponents don't talk about much if at all. Will UBI be counted as income? How will this…

> real problem with any such proposal will be implementation and policy details which most UBI proponents don't talk about much if at all.

They do talk about this, you just haven't been listening. Yang proposes a voluntary switch between needs-based welfare and UBI combined with a national VAT.

https://ubicalculator.com/ provides a good amount of detail about how various UBI plans will be funded.

Post reply on HN