Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

perell.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 238 posts

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#81

Post by CRUDite »

There is considerable reportage of food stamp usage on for e.g sugar soda based drinks, and whether even restrictions on usage such that vegetables should be purchased and soda banned to inhibit diabetes. Inference being ' its our money and 'they' dont know whats good for them'. Ubi would be distributed as some credit ( not 'money' ) , and in an era where everything is tracked, its usage and your monitoring by the 'state' (or whatever apparatus is used) does not paint a pretty picture of utopian freedom. It may also be an exercise in converting money to a digital format to enable negative rates and forced expenditure. The poorest will likely not resist such a change, it will seem a bargain. Cash would abolished for all and 'banks' and 'bankers' would be permanently entrenched.

Certainly automation will potentially free up some labor, and the currently underway automation of thought processes will take out some (or all) middle class roles. Until there is some sort of direct democratic methodology i would not trust any of these utopian policy makers. A future where you own nothing, and timeshare a place of living, transport etc strikes me as one with zero social mobility and is a prime candidate for corruption.

Its a place you need the stainless steel rat to visit and disrupt.

Otoh i guess i could be wrong and it could be just super.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#82

Post by caconym_ »

meddlepal wrote: post #32
RivieraKid wrote: post #12

The prevailing view seems to be: robots will take our jobs, therefore we will need UBI, which allows people to live without work. The way I see it, the main problem that UBI is solving is inequality, it's a rich to poor transfer. Excessive inequality is bad because the aggregate utility goes down (rich people don't gain much from an additional dollar, so it's more effectively used by a poor person). Transfering cash…

All the current proposals for UBI seem to be talking about relatively modest anounts of income... between 10-15K a year... that's not going to go very far unless the cost of rent, essentials, and services drops dramatically. The reality is if we end up with a large amount of people that are not working then our economy is going to be totally hosed because it runs on consumption. If people don't have the money to cons…

The consumer products and services economy (and its enablers in government) is what happens when basic production gets way more efficient and the elite needs a new way to trap the underclasses in wage slavery and keep all the profits for themselves.

It's unsustainable nonsense, and incompatible with any sort of long-term stable future. The economic battery whose poles are the first-world consumer and the third-world sweatshop worker will run down eventually, and it's long past time to start thinking about how we'll adapt when that happens.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#83

Post by platz »

UBI is fine as a technical tool.

But it is a political disaster. It creates a fundamental divide in society.

Are you tired of hearing about folks receiving undeserved 'handouts' for things like food stamps today?

UBI would supercharge that and cement it as a fundamental understanding of ones status in society

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#84

Post by paulgb »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #57

I simply don’t think UBI can survive long term even if it ever gets introduced. The same people who advocate for tax cuts now will also be advocating against UBI and the “lazy parasites” the “job creators” have to feed. People are already complaining about welfare recipients and in the eyes of the people who work full time people who live on UBI will be exactly the same. Unless we totally restructure society this won…

> [...] increasing the supply of low cost housing dramatically? They are pretty much prerequisites for UBI.

Yes, I'm sort of surprised that fixing housing costs is not the first priority of people who want UBI ASAP. As I see it, if you don't start adding supply to the housing market quickly, a UBI would actually become a regressive policy where a tax on consumption (VAT) is effectively transferred to land owners. On the intended effect of reducing inequality, it might be counterproductive.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#85

Post by DennisP »

meddlepal wrote: post #55
DennisP wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the one hand you're saying 15K/yr isn't enough to live on, and on the other you're worried it will prompt people to quit their jobs. Unemployment isn't our major problem right now. The problem is that the jobs available for many people pay very little. Back when I made $18K/year, that extra 10-15K/mo would have been enormously helpful. I certainly wouldn't have stopped working; I would have paid down my credit car…

I think you misunderstood... I don't think it will cause people to quit their jobs. I didn't say that in my post. I assume UBI goes hand in hand with automation straight up eliminating jobs. There are no jobs for people.

That will probably happen eventually but at that point, with UBI in place, we could increase the level to something people can live on. If, say, we get to a point where 90% of people can't find jobs, we really won't have a choice. Essentially we'll need to give the general population a share in the productivity of the robots.

In the meantime, with most people having at least low-paying jobs, we can start with something more modest.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#86

Post by lixtra »

pjc50 wrote: post #62

To me, it's the other way up: without UBI, there is a small number of people who die every year due to not having (sufficient) income. Usually not direct starvation, but exposure-related due to homelessness, or issues such as not being able to afford insulin. There are basically three kinds of response to this: a) they deserve it, all of them b) it's sad, but it's not our problem c) this is not acceptable and somethi…

> without UBI, there is a small number of people who die every year due to not having (sufficient) income

If workers spend a few days per year to pay for your ubi that takes away that time of their life. If they spend 1% of their life working for ubi it’s 1% of workers life lost. That’s asking quite a lot.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#87

Post by jakelazaroff »

silvestrov wrote: post #49
RivieraKid wrote: post #12

The prevailing view seems to be: robots will take our jobs, therefore we will need UBI, which allows people to live without work. The way I see it, the main problem that UBI is solving is inequality, it's a rich to poor transfer. Excessive inequality is bad because the aggregate utility goes down (rich people don't gain much from an additional dollar, so it's more effectively used by a poor person). Transfering cash…

Food is not enough. People also want a purpose with their life where they are important for other people. Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month. Such a person has enough money for food, good apartment, etc. All what UBI wants to provide. But many of these people end up depressed, inactive, feels like a failure, etc. Many just give completely up.…

I can’t read the article, so forgive me if that’s backed by research rather than just anecdata, but… is that really an issue people would have?

I would love UBI, because it would transform what I could do with my time. Instead of working 9–5 on software for a company, I could build whatever I want. There are tons of app ideas floating around in my head that I just don’t have time to build. And I could release them for free or cheap, because my survival wouldn’t depend on them being profitable.

With UBI, I would expect to see many more people building open–source software. I would expect many more going into the arts. I would expect many more doing volunteer work. There are so many fulfilling and valuable things to do that are not easily profitable!

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#88

Post by iso947 »

seibelj wrote: post #67
jrockway wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An AI revolution is not required to eliminate jobs. Robots are already doing the work of millions. You can see it everywhere you look. Was your laptop hand milled out of aluminum? Nope, a CNC machine did it. Do you see 12 cashiers manning 12 checkout lanes at the grocery store? Nope, 1 cashier is manning 12 self-checkout lanes. Do you have a secretary that schedules your meetings? No, you just use Google Calendar. Th…

Yes, technology enhancements (which are not “AI”) have increased productivity, allowing less people to create more value. Where is the widespread unemployment?

The fear is, like the agricultural and industrial revolutions, that change will suddenly spring forward at a rate that society can’t adapt fast enough.

And people are unemployed, or worse they are employed but at a rate they can’t afford to live, so are one of the tens of thousands of homeless in LA alone. They work 18 hours a day 7 days a week, so are dangerous as they drive to their third job at 3 in the morning which causes a crash which means massive traffic problems all day.

Even if you are a cold blooded Victorian thetr are benefits to keeping your customers alive and with enough free time to buy the crap you peddle.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#89

Post by ZhuanXia »

jrockway wrote: post #44
seibelj wrote: post #8

Is this AI revolution ever going to happen? Siri and Alexa still hear the wrong thing half the time, even when I speak and enunciate very clearly. What jobs have been eliminated by this revolution that I’ve been hearing about for the past decade? The self driving cars are not picking me up and not delivering my packages. I have a better solution than airdropping everyone welfare money so we can laze around all day -…

An AI revolution is not required to eliminate jobs. Robots are already doing the work of millions. You can see it everywhere you look. Was your laptop hand milled out of aluminum? Nope, a CNC machine did it. Do you see 12 cashiers manning 12 checkout lanes at the grocery store? Nope, 1 cashier is manning 12 self-checkout lanes. Do you have a secretary that schedules your meetings? No, you just use Google Calendar. Th…

>An AI revolution is not required to eliminate jobs.

Yes it is. If you have tasks that cannot be automated, people's labour will have value. It would require AI that is as good as any human, and that is cheaper of course, to eliminate all jobs. And even then rich people may prefer human labour for nostalgic or signalling reasons. Eliminating all jobs is a tall order.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#90

Post by ZhuanXia »

seibelj wrote: post #67
jrockway wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An AI revolution is not required to eliminate jobs. Robots are already doing the work of millions. You can see it everywhere you look. Was your laptop hand milled out of aluminum? Nope, a CNC machine did it. Do you see 12 cashiers manning 12 checkout lanes at the grocery store? Nope, 1 cashier is manning 12 self-checkout lanes. Do you have a secretary that schedules your meetings? No, you just use Google Calendar. Th…

Yes, technology enhancements (which are not “AI”) have increased productivity, allowing less people to create more value. Where is the widespread unemployment?

There is a notion in economics of complements and replacements. The plow was a complement to horse labour, while the gas engine was a replacement. The former increased demand for horses while the latter basicly eliminated it. If we truly had human-level AI, labour models predict human wages would decline below subsistence. However, applying these labour models in a regime where we have AGI makes little sense, as all that will matter for human welfare is the objective functions of the AIs.
Post reply on HN