Educated Fools • Hacker News Board

Re: Educated Fools

#201

Post by mixmastamyk » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 9:58 AM UTC

jayd16 wrote: post #65

toasterlovin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Democratic Party is driving a wedge between itself, FWIW. The talking points around political correctness could not be better designed to alienate working and middle class white people.

>The talking points around political correctness could not be better designed to alienate working and middle class white people. As a middle class white, I ask "such as?"

I recently read something about how all folks should define their pronouns since a small minority prefers unexpected ones. A person generally supportive of it was calling out a hardline faction.

Re: Educated Fools

#202

Post by hinkley » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 9:59 AM UTC

tacitusarc wrote: post #168

IIAOPSW wrote: post #146

I'm going to break slightly with the authors opinion here and say we do solve every problem with "be more like us" but that doesn't always mean college. Other solutions involve "why don't you just move", better mass transit / fewer cars, some form of retraining (not college per se) etc. There's a whole basket of diverging "elite" values such that even if they stopped telling people to go to college tomorrow they woul…

Part of the problem is the suggestion that they need help in the first place. So what Joe the garbage truck driver didn't go to college? So what he has a small house in a kinda shitty neighborhood? Maybe he's doing the best he can and maybe he actually has a pretty happy life. The working class doesn't need pity and suggestions to move or go get a degree. Here's something novel: why are the roads in nice neighborhood…

I always wonder how the mental model works for some people. They espouse a way to live that they think everyone should do, but that way includes not making your own food, hauling your own trash, or (at least for many of them) building your own things.

If they got their way, they’d have to do all the stuff they look down on other people for being competent at. But I don’t think they want them to do these things, they just want a way to either prop themselves up, or keep other people down.

Re: Educated Fools

#203

Post by hef19898 » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 10:01 AM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #6

Man, this is gold. I for long tried to write something along those lines, but I think the author did summarise my thoughts better than I could've done myself. The class conflict — something that western literati class keep denying acknowledgement, is really the driver of much of social progress. And this holds more even more true in the West than in the East. The class warfare is there, it exists, and it is what has…

Yep, I think the biggest difference between last centuries 20s and now is that the nationalistic notion is today more of a sugar coating. Today it seems to be more about the rich against the poor, regardless of country, region or continent. A divide that can, and currently is, easily abused by certain parties and groups. Add uncertainty about the future, climate change prime among a lot of different reasons, and societies are much more volatile than they should be. The general egoism doesn't help neither.

Re: Educated Fools

#204

Post by dragonwriter » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 10:07 AM UTC

Despegar wrote: post #17

analog31 wrote: post #13

In my view, education has begun to act like wealth, because education is a form of wealth, and the productivity divide between wealth and work is increasing. Still, I'm skeptical of the whole idea, because it just seems too convenient for Republicans to drive a wedge between the Democratic party and the working class based on a perceived social division rather than real policy: We took away your unions and safety net…

>We took away your unions and safety net, but by golly, we'll protect your "dignity." Organized labor may not have been targeted explicitly like by Republicans, but Democrats haven't really been a friend to them either [1]. Both parties have been on board with the neoliberal agenda for 40 years. [1] http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/01/democrats-paid-a-huge...

> Both parties have been on board with the neoliberal agenda for 40 years.

For the Democrats, it's more like less than 28; the neoloberal faction didn't become dominant over the economically progressive, faction until during Bill Clinton's Presidency; Clinton himself obviously was a member of the neoliberal faction, but most of the Democratic Party in Congress opposed NAFTA; it wasn't until sometime after the midterm defeat in 1994 that the neoliberals faction definitely dominated the Party.

And the neoliberal faction in the Democratic Party is fighting desperately against being swept from power in the party right now, to the extent of prioritizing that intraparty fight over defeating the other major party.

Re: Educated Fools

#205

Post by te_chris » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 10:13 AM UTC

paganel wrote: post #10

> This all fits the claim of the French geographer Christophe Guilluy about his own country in his 2016 book The Twilight of the Elites: Prosperity, the Periphery, and the Future of France. +1 for Christophe Guilluy's book, it's really eye-opening, even more so considering that he wrote/published it even before the "gilets jaunes" movement started. Not sure there's a solution for this "periphery" problem, but I see i…

God it’s rampant in the UK, completely bisected between London and the rest of the country.

Re: Educated Fools

#206

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 10:14 AM UTC

toasterlovin wrote: post #14

analog31 wrote: post #13

In my view, education has begun to act like wealth, because education is a form of wealth, and the productivity divide between wealth and work is increasing. Still, I'm skeptical of the whole idea, because it just seems too convenient for Republicans to drive a wedge between the Democratic party and the working class based on a perceived social division rather than real policy: We took away your unions and safety net…

The Democratic Party is driving a wedge between itself, FWIW. The talking points around political correctness could not be better designed to alienate working and middle class white people.

[deleted]

Re: Educated Fools

#207

Post by yodsanklai » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 10:15 AM UTC

mixmastamyk wrote: post #193

yodsanklai wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm unconvinced that a college education is actually even that useful. I can't talk for every majors but at least for STEM, you need to study hard for years to acquire solid foundations. I don't see how you can gather all the required knowledge by yourself.

You could and should, but probably won’t.

I don't know in the US, but during the 5 years it took me to graduate, I usually had about 30-40 hours of classes a week, plus a lot of personal work (especially in maths), and that for 5 years.

If you want to do that by yourself, you need to:

- decide what you need to learn, and find what are the best resources to learn it

- keep motivated for many years, without feedback that you're on the right track

- convince your future employer that you have skills

We should keep learning all life long, but I don't think anything can replace a formal education. It's one thing to learn things on the side when you need them. But it's much harder to tackle heavy foundational topics without supervision.

Re: Educated Fools

#208

Post by goatinaboat » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 10:24 AM UTC

dougmwne wrote: post #153

epicgiga wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd go further, and say that at this point, college is a self serving regime that needs to be overthrown. I've no problem with dedicated medical schools and law schools etc, but there's something about the university system that is deeply corrupt and self absorbed. We should break them up, have the schools be separate schools, and have separate certification centers and competition in certificates (which would plug i…

I'm not sure if it's possible. We all have plenty of incentive to keep on pretending that the emperor has clothes. The educated elite run the world. Why would we overthrow ourselves? The degree is the first fence protecting the gated community of the new urban aristocracy.

The degree is the first fence protecting the gated community of the new urban aristocracy

But it isn’t a gate anymore really; in the UK at least basically everyone below a certain age has a degree, since they converted the polys. Having a degree isn’t in any way “elite” now, although of course there are still elite universities.

Re: Educated Fools

#209

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 10:33 AM UTC

tacitusarc wrote: post #168

IIAOPSW wrote: post #146

I'm going to break slightly with the authors opinion here and say we do solve every problem with "be more like us" but that doesn't always mean college. Other solutions involve "why don't you just move", better mass transit / fewer cars, some form of retraining (not college per se) etc. There's a whole basket of diverging "elite" values such that even if they stopped telling people to go to college tomorrow they woul…

Part of the problem is the suggestion that they need help in the first place. So what Joe the garbage truck driver didn't go to college? So what he has a small house in a kinda shitty neighborhood? Maybe he's doing the best he can and maybe he actually has a pretty happy life. The working class doesn't need pity and suggestions to move or go get a degree. Here's something novel: why are the roads in nice neighborhood…

[deleted]

Re: Educated Fools

#210

Post by goatinaboat » Sun, Feb 02, 2020, 10:37 AM UTC

wangii wrote: post #20

as Chinese lives in uk, they had been my questions for a long time: why did you guys voted for david cameron, barack obama, (any politician, really) at all? had they ever struggled to pay their bills? do they really feel your pain?

had they ever struggled to pay their bills?

It’s a good question. The last genuine PM we had was John Major, the son of a gardener who studied at night school while working for his father during the day. Before him was Maggie Thatcher, an industrial chemist by trade.

All since then have been career politicians from the political class. Blair went to Fettes, the “Scottish Eton”. Cameron and Boris were classmates at Eton and Oxford. Even Jeremy Corbyn, supposed champion of the Workers never worked a day in his life. He will likely be followed as leader of the Labour Party by Sir Kier or Lady Nugee.