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Educated Fools

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Re: Educated Fools

#121
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I say all of this as someone making over six figures working from home in a situation I could have never imagined myself in ten years ago. I needed my degree; but just to get my foot in the door. I didn't learn much during the process itself other than to recognize the meta fact that I had to do it to get out of my current situation. This would have been a real problem for me financially if it didn't work ou…

It seems that a lot of people feel their degree was not useful. My studies were definitely far removed from what I now do for a living. However, I have not met (except on HN) any successful "knowledge workers" without a degree. I'm sure there are many factors contributing to that: smarter people are more likely to pursue degrees in the first place, companies may ignore otherwise good candidates since they lack a degr…

I feel that I have a lucid understanding of the lack of skills that I learned during my undergraduate program- that is exactly why I am frustrated with my experience.

Re: Educated Fools

#122

TBH I'm indifferent to the rural working classes plight. I'm LGBT and they've proven time and time again that they aren't my friends (both growing up in flyover country and later after I escaped that wasteland by how they vote and how they treat my brothers and sisters who didn't escape). If they want to vote against our shared interests and suffer the consequences, so be it. Me and mine will keep building without th…

Where there is pain, it must our pain and your pain too. Identity politics, hating and us-vs.-them doesn't get us anywhere but divided-and-conquered into the greedy hands of the amoral elites. Hate the ideology but not the person, or we'll convince no one and divided we fall. Do you really want to go back to segregation, lynchings or pushing LGBT+ people off buildings so long as it doesn't affect you?

Re: Educated Fools

#123

TBH I'm indifferent to the rural working classes plight. I'm LGBT and they've proven time and time again that they aren't my friends (both growing up in flyover country and later after I escaped that wasteland by how they vote and how they treat my brothers and sisters who didn't escape). If they want to vote against our shared interests and suffer the consequences, so be it. Me and mine will keep building without th…

I completely understand your position, and sympathize with it, but it seems a bit shortsighted given that you have to live with these people, and things won't improve for your "brothers and sisters who didn't escape" if things don't get better for them. They'll happily drag you and yours down with them. This is all to say that we're all in this together, and while your indifference towards their plight may be justifi…

In general:

Give hate and antipathy no quarter. Where there is pain, it must our pain, or there will inevitably be revolution and chaos. Love without discrimination, even with those you disagree with, because they cannot be moved if we act like impetuous children by refusing to talk to them. Prejudice also cannot be convenient, or we likely possess internal inconsistencies we must face if we are to be honest and have integrity.

Re: Educated Fools

#124
This one really hits home for me. I’m at a cross roads in my life right now and kind of lost. I had a great job working as the number 2 at a small business that I lucked into, but for various reasons beyond the control of the corporation, had to close. I’m in my late 20s, and as this article puts it, merely a high school graduate. I can code and do IT work, coordinate problem solving between businesses, read scientific texts, understand statistics and am very capable of managing others, amongst many other skills. Indeed these were all attributes that allowed me to rapidly rise up the ranks. But trying to find a fulfilling job without a Bachelor’s is beginning to feel like a fool’s errand. My parents were both college grads and waited a long time to have kids, so I don’t have the problems with rationalizing and asking questions that article presupposes—indeed my inability to accept orders and not have intellectual freedom drives me to keep looking for rewarding work, against the odds.

Despite being described as bright my whole life, I’ve never done well in an academic environment for a few reasons, I could readily absorb the material but I was terribly antagonistic towards teachers who generally desire a sense of authority in their class rooms. I also as an adult have been diagnosed with ADHD, which to me at least explains a good portion of why I struggled in school. I never did my homework and was told endlessly that going to community college was the best financial option, and I was very freaked out by student loans, the problem being that community colleges put much more emphasis on grading coursework, which ended up being my downfall.

Part of me thinks I should just start lying on my resume about having attended a 4 year STEM program, because the credentialism seems so real and absolutely bullshit. I have work experience, if I got an interview they’d probably be blown away with this “high school graduate”, but I never get interviews, no matter how qualified I am. I’ve even been encouraged to do this by people in the “educated elite”. They tell me to just study a given schools curriculum, learn some names of professor and call it good enough. But I really hate lying about myself, it feels so contrary to my nature. As the article mentions, I feel very depressed with my life and reading people who say that a degree is a golden indicator is genuinely depressing. I don’t know what to do, and I honestly feel victimized by credentialism, which makes me resent the concept of dropping everything and taking on loans to go to school. (At least my interest rate would be good now!)

Re: Educated Fools

#125
The class analysis is right, but the economic one is a bit bonkers.

1. The people with college degrees are also debasing their own degree by pushing for more college, not just marginal college grads. That's not self-interest, just naivite.

2. As others said, college is vastly overrated. The author gets that there is diminishing returns for new college grads, but doesn't see we are already getting little bang for buck because there is a shortage of non-bullshit jobs, and what work doesn't demand society fails to teach.

3. Author should spend time with the UBI crowd. Contrary to the popular imagination amoung guilty costalites of emasculated coal miners having to find a new line of work, actua poor people understand work is not dignifying and their is no shame in UBI (even if they think there is shame in means-tested welfare!) It's the rich Democrats who cling to education who regurgitate the dribble they were told about work being meaningful.

Gah, the author is sooo close to getting it. Just need to combine with something like https://medium.com/@alexhowlett/introduction-to-consumer-mon... and they'll be there.

Re: Educated Fools

#126
post #70

I totally agree with the article, but to me the saddest part of all of this is I'm unconvinced that a college education is actually even that useful. (I say that with a four year CS degree). Most majors, to be blunt, are pretty useless in terms of real world skills. The argument is "they teach you how to think". I don't know how you would even measure that, but it doesn't seem that true, especially since colleges are…

>I'm unconvinced that a college education is actually even that useful. How is this a question? How many high school grads have you interviewed and thought you could spin them up to the usefulness of a graduate from nothing in a reasonable amount of time/effort? Education is expensive, sure. We can talk about that... but useful? It seems obviously useful to me.

My undergrad didn't teach actual courses in C, Ruby on Rails, Scala or in fact any other "style" of programming I've ever used in industry besides Java and Python.

And I went to a top-20 undergrad for CS. That doesn't mean it wasn't useful. It was. I use stuff I learned in my past education a reasonable portion of the time, now, as a researcher.

That doesn't mean that it was a more direct way to "get a job", had I the courage to try that path at the time, than just doing an apprenticeship would have been.

Re: Educated Fools

#127

This one really hits home for me. I’m at a cross roads in my life right now and kind of lost. I had a great job working as the number 2 at a small business that I lucked into, but for various reasons beyond the control of the corporation, had to close. I’m in my late 20s, and as this article puts it, merely a high school graduate. I can code and do IT work, coordinate problem solving between businesses, read scientif…

Well, if you know Haskell the company where I work hires remote and is solidly opposed to credentialist bullshit.

If no Haskell, well, good luck!

Re: Educated Fools

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nobody’s brain will hold a candle to AI Nobody can outrun a car, either, but cars haven’t made humans obsolete. Instead, we use them as tools to accomplish our goals: just as we will with AI.

But cars have made horses obsolete. Although horses aren’t extinct, owning one is more of a hobby in the western world. AI is cognitive automation. Not only will blue collar jobs be replaced, but so to will white collar jobs as well. We’re approaching the point where capital alone (without labor) will be able to generate wealth in more general cases. When that happens, employing people will be a hobby. When that happ…

Deal with it when it happens.

How much time was spent worrying about what would happen when energy was too cheap too meter? It didn't happen.

It's easy to come up with problems to worry about that don't actually exist.

Re: Educated Fools

#129

Great article that exposes many college-educated blind spots, in particular that education is not a panacea for inequality. But the proposed solution of more democratic workplaces — somehow convincing capital-holders that investing in human labor rather than automation is in their own self-interest — feels like swimming against the tide of history. Meritocracy is a dangerous ideal for humanity to continue to hold so…

Is meritocracy a belief really held by elites though? It seems more a propaganda for the professional class to keep them from acting in solidarity with everyone else. In material terms, people making high salaries at FAANG companies are still closer to their low-paid and contract working peers. But it’s important for them to think that they’re closer in position to the CEOs and Capital owners so that they’ll continue…

>In material terms, people making high salaries at FAANG companies are still closer to their low-paid and contract working peers. But it’s important for them to think that they’re closer in position to the CEOs and Capital owners so that they’ll continue to administer the ownership class’ empires and bureaucracies. Thus the fiction of meritocracy.

Uh... I think that's the wrong argument. The people making "high salaries" (let's say... >= $100k/year, base salary) at FAANG companies really are, de facto, petty bourgeois. They don't just get "stock options" that never materialize. They get annual bonuses in the tens of thousands of dollars, plus stock options or RSUs that vest to create further paper wealth. In the Bay Area with its stupidly stratospheric housing prices, maybe we can talk about these people being "middle class" in the same way my parents are (ie: as white-collar employees making middling salaries). Maybe.

But really, just about anywhere outside the Bay Area, most of those high salary FAANG employees are building capital far faster than they lose money to living expenses, and provided they're willing to live cheaply and far away, a secure early retirement in middle-age is a strong possibility. Given some moderate but successful investments, they could even get truly rich.

Working class is when you convert labor into money into commodities. Owning class is when you convert money into commodities into money.

But what's correct to point out is that the vast majority of programmers, software engineers, and IT staff aren't high-salary FAANG workers. They take home a median income, in fact, of about ~$65k/year.

Re: Educated Fools

#130
post #20

as Chinese lives in uk, they had been my questions for a long time: why did you guys voted for david cameron, barack obama, (any politician, really) at all? had they ever struggled to pay their bills? do they really feel your pain?

What do the 2nd and 3rd question have to do with the 1st?

I don't see a clear connection because:

1. the current U.S. president won without having either of those attributes you imply are worth mentioning

2. Bernie Sanders hits both of your imagined electability points and couldn't even beat Hillary Clinton to gain the Democratic nomination last election.

3. Bill Clinton, probably the epitome of "relatable and struggled," did beat George H. Bush who was the opposite of that. But George H. had already been president for four years!

4. OMG Sarah Palin! It's as if the universe read your question and traveled back in time to deliver the perfect counterexample to your implication. Remember that Republican voters absolutely loved her folksy ways, her seemingly unrehearsed speeches, and her professed rejection of PC culture and Democratic elitism. She was unfortunately so much like the average voter that she lacked the basic competency necessary to run. That was noticed by the voting public and it did help tank McCain's campaign.

So yes-- relatability and personal story are an inescapable part of American politics. Also, major triads probably make up a significant proportion of Mozart's symphonies. But if one implies that's all there is to talk about in either case it doesn't show an understanding of the subject matter.

Edit: protect against irrelevant digressions.

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