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EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

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Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#451

Post by microtherion »

oxfordmale wrote: post #288
microtherion wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Micro USB would be kind of mediocre. But if the rule had been in place 20 years ago, cell phones today might be featuring SCSI connectors. And of course, all laptops would be mandated to have VGA connectors, eliminating a ton of conference room presentation guesswork.

The law doesn't define the protocol. Apple could introduce USB-D as superior standard provided it is not proprietary. If this is a superior standard, other companies will adapt it too, becoming the new standard charger.

I believe you are mistaken. The EU resolution calls for the development of "a common standard" (to be updated from time to time): https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/RC-9-2020-0070...

Implementing a different standard, even if it is non-proprietary, won't do.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#452

Post by pergadad »

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #34

The joint motion points to adopting Directive 2014/53/EU which requires common _chargers_ but says nothing about the port that the phone uses. As far as I can tell this is only for the back half of the charger / brick that connects to the wall. Yet the Apple statement, and most of the articles about this (including the linked one), are talking about the phone's connector and talks about lightning and usb-c. Most of t…

Also this motion is not deciding anything. The parliament is just asking the commission (the EU equivalent to a ministry/government) to publish a study on this and take a next step.

Fixing to a specific standard would also not be something done in EU law - laws are meant to be slow-changing, this would be a barrier. You might have a law that specifies that a standard should be set and/or industry bodies ought to agree on a standard to use.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#453

Post by georgespencer »

michaelt wrote: post #436
georgespencer wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having to pay Apple does not mean that Apple wishes to use proprietary cables in its devices in order to make money from third parties. Apple has several products/services which one could reasonably assume operate at break even or negative margin (e.g. Apple Developer accounts). To illustrate (accept you may be too busy to do the research, but I'm trying to show you why a company which does $250bn a year in revenue d…

I'd say getting $4 of revenue with zero expenditure is a profitable endeavour, yes.

Can you please substantiate why you believe there to be zero expenditure associated with the MFI program? The MFI certification team at Apple do not work for free.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#454

Post by georgespencer »

ksec wrote: post #442
georgespencer wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having to pay Apple does not mean that Apple wishes to use proprietary cables in its devices in order to make money from third parties. Apple has several products/services which one could reasonably assume operate at break even or negative margin (e.g. Apple Developer accounts). To illustrate (accept you may be too busy to do the research, but I'm trying to show you why a company which does $250bn a year in revenue d…

1. I dont think you understand Apple's business and supply chain really well, due to theirs sheer scale, they do count pennies. 2. There are roughly 1.5 billion devices with Lighting Port, if only 10% of its user buy a new cable every year at $1 net profits that is $150M per year. Not to mention they ship 250M lightning cables inside new devices every year that could be used to mask their BOM and margin. From Apple's…

> they do count pennies

Counting pennies means saving money. It does not mean driving revenue through low-cost licensing sales.

I think your point is that Apple has such significant scale that just charging a few bucks a year to a fraction of their users means that they make what you or I would consider to be significant revenue.

> if only 10% of its users buy a new cable every year at $1 net profits that is $150m a year

My points, summarised:

1. As someone who is extremely familiar with Apple's business, MFI looks like it's as much about minimising costs and preserving CSAT than driving revenue.

2. We can at least infer that even if the ludicrous (sorry) assumptions you've made are true, we're talking about a business line which contributes less than 1% to Apple's bottom line. The total revenue generated by MFI is likely to be far, far less than that: I imagine in the order of $80m USD a year, on a company which -- again -- does $250 BILLION a year of revenue.

The crux of my argument is: Apple does not care sufficiently about selling you cables and dongles to derange engineering decisions on their products. Nobody at Apple is saying "let's not switch to USB-C because we can keep making money from MFI and lightning dongles."

People constantly make this bullshit claim that Apple makes engineering decisions so that they can sell you a dongle or a cable, and it's so patently illogical that nobody should feel happy repeating it.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#455

Post by viraptor »

greglindahl wrote: post #409
viraptor wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compare the price of an Apple phone to a burner phone and you'll know why they're not great quality. Apple chargers at that price would also suck.

The problem with the burner chargers was that they were inflexible. The wall plug couldn't be changed for other countries, and there was no USB A between the wall wart and the cable so I couldn't use it to charge all of my other gadgets.

Replaceable plug costs more money and I don't expect you spent a lot on your burner phones. My flagship Android did come with a replaceable plug.

The fact you couldn't charge all your other gadgets is the point of the regulation though.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#456

Post by greglindahl »

viraptor wrote: post #455
greglindahl wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with the burner chargers was that they were inflexible. The wall plug couldn't be changed for other countries, and there was no USB A between the wall wart and the cable so I couldn't use it to charge all of my other gadgets.

Replaceable plug costs more money and I don't expect you spent a lot on your burner phones. My flagship Android did come with a replaceable plug. The fact you couldn't charge all your other gadgets is the point of the regulation though.

It is? Only in some abstract sense. They all already have a cable that plugs into USB A. I'm supposed to throw them all away to move to a new standard interface in a different place?

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#457

Post by pas »

defnotashton2 wrote: post #386
pas wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a country with universal health care. I haven't seen my doctor in 3-4 years. And last time I saw him it was because the flu or a particularly nasty cold. People pay a fixed percent of their income into the HC system. Furthermore, while you are attending school (university, college, whatever), you are automatically covered. There was a small token copay system for a few years about 10 years ago, that helped…

Proved my point. If it costs 100$ to not be desperately poor, and you make 100$ and the Gov takes 60% of your 100$ you still only have 40$. Doesn't matter if the tax is a flat % or not you still don't have the money to not be poor. All so that you could visit the doctor 1 every 5 years for a flue without having to pay.. Alternatively If you lived freely, you could make 100$, decide you pay 60$for insurance if you wan…

I seem to have missed your excellent syllogism, but how have you reached the conclusion that it costs a 100 bucks to be not poor?

Plus I already live quite freely, thanks.

I have no problem with having an option for people that would need to pay only when the need arises. (And they would pay full price, go into debt, or they would be euthanized if they haven't paid at least X years of HC insurance plus they have no money, nor any reasonable chance of making some after recovery.) That would be a nice natural experiment.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#458

Post by kortilla »

alt_f4 wrote: post #334
kortilla wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? iPad Pro and MacBook sales are a drop in the bucket compared to iPhone.

And iPhone sales a drop in the bucket compared to Android phone sales. And they all have USB-C.

Not sure you know what the phrase “drop in the bucket” means.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#459

Post by PunksATawnyFill »

signal11 wrote: post #350
GeekyBear wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's charger already had a standard USB-A port and has moved to having a standard USB-C port. It's the cable that they include with the iPhone that has a USB connector on the charger end and a lightning port on the phone end. That included cable allows you to charge with any manufacturer's USB-C charger in the same way that the previous version of the cable worked with any USB-A charging port. So, in summary, the…

> If they want to force Apple's hand specifically, they should be focusing on the port on the phone, not the charger. It's worth remembering that the backers of the EU legislation started with the idea of reducing e-waste, not punishing a particular manufacturer. Nor is it a Lightning vs USB-C squabble. Getting people to throw their lightning cables, charging ports, docking stations, etc away would be counter-product…

Strawman. That’s a one-time transition. And do Apple devices even come with chargers anymore?
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