As a flyer: Do their planes fall out of the sky due to pervasive dysfunctional corporate culture? Nope.
So yeah not great & but relatively speaking I can't say I particularly care
Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
131–140 of 251 posts
Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nobody goes to jail for "lobbying" in the US while it is clearly about the same thing as bribery. Just a legal form of it.
While lobbyists have sometimes bribed officials through gifts and perks, which is illegal, lobbying is not bribery. Say you're interesting in promoting renewable energy. You and like minded people put together resources to promote renewable energy to politicians, explaining its benefits. This activity is lobbying for renewable energy.
>> You and like minded people put together resources to promote renewable energy to politicians
Unlike corporations and their biggest shareholders, regular people don't have resources to influence politicians. Any lobbying attempt backed by non-corporate interests will not be able to reach politicians' ears. Politicians have no time for groups/think thanks which don't have a track record of paying up after politicians finish their terms.
Idealized theoretical forms of lobbying bear no resemblance to reality. To bring the ideal closer to reality, politicians would have to start reaching out to people instead of the other way round. Currently, the only reason politicians reach out to people is for a PR photo op.
Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
Reminds me of an old story: https://www.economist.com/special-report/2003/06/12/airbuss-... Maybe people here have never heard the EU point of view on it, so let me sum it up: Airbus bribed Saudi officials in the 90s to get a 6 billion contracts. It was "whistleblowed" by this then little-known agency: NSA and in the end Boeing got the contract. It triggered a EU investigation in what was then called ECHELON. A Cold-…
I agree with all you've said, including that probably the US bribes (or threatens) as much or more than the EU. But being even more cynical about it, this is just the way the free market sneaks in, including these big government deals: one party has money, the other party has power. Say Airbus bribes Saudi Arabia Officials. The officials don't have that much money, but they surely have power, and Airbus doesn't have…
Actually, this is orthogonal to governments. There's widespread bribery in the private sector too, where decisions makers are gifted to persuade them.
To use your phrasing, a capitalistic view of this is that corruption is just anything that breaks the fairy tale idea that the people who work in the corporation seek the interests of the company and not their very own private interests.
You can even see it play out here on Hacker News - people who optimize for their own career goals at the detriment of the company that pays them to get a job done.
Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
#134As a flyer: Do their planes fall out of the sky due to pervasive dysfunctional corporate culture? Nope. So yeah not great & but relatively speaking I can't say I particularly care
The correct answer is : Eventually.
So yeah, everyone should care.
Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
#135As a business flyer - at this moment I am willing to pay 10-15% more for my tickets provided I fly only airbus equipment.
Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
#136Every company doles out bribes. In many countries bribery is the way to go. Things don’t happen without it. They just find creative ways to make it legal that’s all.
“Every company” is obviously hyperbole. My local deli doesn’t bribe anybody. What do you really mean - every $1bn+ revenue aerospace firm?
> My local deli doesn’t bribe anybody.
It would be more surprising if that were actually true.
Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
While lobbyists have sometimes bribed officials through gifts and perks, which is illegal, lobbying is not bribery. Say you're interesting in promoting renewable energy. You and like minded people put together resources to promote renewable energy to politicians, explaining its benefits. This activity is lobbying for renewable energy.
>> You and like minded people put together resources to promote renewable energy to politicians Unlike corporations and their biggest shareholders, regular people don't have resources to influence politicians. Any lobbying attempt backed by non-corporate interests will not be able to reach politicians' ears. Politicians have no time for groups/think thanks which don't have a track record of paying up after politician…
As a regular person, I've spent $400 to travel to DC and walk in and meet with 12 senators and congressmen. No donations required and I got to spend an hour with each as and even got treated to lunch by one of my states US reps. Got the policy change,too. So many people are way to cynical. Lobbyists show up and citizens do not. When a citizen shows up (and is rational) legislators listen.
Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
#138This is really US taking down strategic competitors. It's nothing new.
It's foreign policy, america first, double standard or whatever you want to name it.
Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nobody goes to jail for "lobbying" in the US while it is clearly about the same thing as bribery. Just a legal form of it.
While lobbyists have sometimes bribed officials through gifts and perks, which is illegal, lobbying is not bribery. Say you're interesting in promoting renewable energy. You and like minded people put together resources to promote renewable energy to politicians, explaining its benefits. This activity is lobbying for renewable energy.
If you convince their constituents to whom they are beholden, sure.
Behind closed doors, not at all, I very much agree with GP, there's a lot of pernicious shit going on that is actively harming democracies across the globe.
Corporate lobbying is for the most part a well-funded, knowledgeable adversary generally in opposition to a bunch of people who at best can sign some petitions or march in the streets. It's an asymmetrical game that should be acknowledged.
Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with all you've said, including that probably the US bribes (or threatens) as much or more than the EU. But being even more cynical about it, this is just the way the free market sneaks in, including these big government deals: one party has money, the other party has power. Say Airbus bribes Saudi Arabia Officials. The officials don't have that much money, but they surely have power, and Airbus doesn't have…
Actually, this is orthogonal to governments. There's widespread bribery in the private sector too, where decisions makers are gifted to persuade them. To use your phrasing, a capitalistic view of this is that corruption is just anything that breaks the fairy tale idea that the people who work in the corporation seek the interests of the company and not their very own private interests. You can even see it play out he…
It's true, but it's also true that many things that are considered corruption/illegal when you do it for the government, they are not when it's inside a company. If a business owner hires his nephew, that's not illegal and many people wouldn't consider it corruption. If a government official appoints his nephew, that's frowned upon to say the least. But going back to your argument, if an employee uses his position and gets bribed, of course that's going at the detriment of the company... but you could also say that if the company has the right checks and balances he will get caught, and that if the company had made sure that the interests of the employee were well-aligned with the company's it wouldn't be a logical step. And that's why some companies pay so handsomely.