Lockheed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals
Don't try to change the subject.
Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
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Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
Option 3: start jailing these fraudsters for criminal fraud. Jail corporate profits for 6 months. Claw back any and all executive pay since the fraud began and distribute it to low level employees or other victims of the fraud. If you can't survive as an honest company you don't deserve to survive. And there are very few people that give the government as many screws as executives to modify their behavior.
In medical devices when you screw up they can stop you from selling in a country for a while. That usually wakes people up. Stopping them from doing business for a while would wake up a lot of companies. But they can always hold their employees hostage since they would take most of the suffering.
Well it is not completely clean in that industry. When selling large capital equipment you influence the buyer alot - invite them to your HQ, big hotel, show your secret innovation and talk about massive deals in reagents or other system the buy from you...
Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
Corruption has already massively improved since the heydays of the 60s and 70s, so I doubt your cynicism. But of all the industries, big planes should be among the easiest to clean up: there’s only two participants in this prisoners‘ dilemma, and they are both, theoretically, under the purview of rigorous enforcement in countries governed by law.
"there’s only two participants in this prisoners‘ dilemma, and they are both, theoretically, under the purview of rigorous enforcement in countries governed by law." What? No. There are 1000's of participants, and few of them are under the purview of the law. 1. Someone wants access to a Malaysian Air exec at some hotel event. Bribe someone for info. 2. Someone is overseeing the aircraft regulatory body, their findin…
This
Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
#94Anyone here actually believes it is only Airbus???
Is there evidence of others?
Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nobody goes to jail for "lobbying" in the US while it is clearly about the same thing as bribery. Just a legal form of it.
While lobbyists have sometimes bribed officials through gifts and perks, which is illegal, lobbying is not bribery. Say you're interesting in promoting renewable energy. You and like minded people put together resources to promote renewable energy to politicians, explaining its benefits. This activity is lobbying for renewable energy.
"Resources" is in an understatement. It involves directly paying politicians. How is that not bribery?
Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
If that were the case lobbying would not cost billions of dollars. Lobbying doesn’t have to be bribery, but in America it absolutely is.
The lobbyists are expensive lawyers. Their publically reported fees are the tip of an iceberg, where the bulk of valuable considerations is hidden from view.
Indeed. I work with the government affairs team in my company, of which, many are lobbyists.
There are no bribes happening, just very expensive people who know how to time with politicians to argue their side.
Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
If it's structured like that, sure, but it'll not be done that way. One approach is for a politician/candidate to hold a fundraising lunch/dinner/whatever, and charge for seats. Lobbyists and other folks who want to get access to the senator will buy those tickets and get their couple of minutes to talk about whatever issue is important to them. Any direction on bill will almost certainly be of a more indirect nature…
So you're saying it's 100%, without a doubt bribery, but we're just going to use some tricky language so it doesn't sound like that. America is corrupt to the very core, don't try to explain it away with newspeak or some kind of roundabout language. It's extremely common to buy the favour of politicians.
You can just generalize to anywhere run by humans.
Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
While lobbyists have sometimes bribed officials through gifts and perks, which is illegal, lobbying is not bribery. Say you're interesting in promoting renewable energy. You and like minded people put together resources to promote renewable energy to politicians, explaining its benefits. This activity is lobbying for renewable energy.
What a demagogic way of phrasing it! So no money ends up in the account of future election campaigns?
Money isn't even the worst of it at this level. It's about networking, and what you can ask for. A top politician doesn't need to be bribed when they understand perfectly well that if they happen to need a little pocket money, they can just come and hold a speech for six figures. If the money will be there when you need it, there's only risk in letting it lie in your bank account.
Likewise, blackmail. People imagine envelopes with incriminating pictures. But that kind of blackmail rarely gets used, because once you've given in to it, then what? The blackmail will still hang over your head. You'll serve the blackmailer for life. At that point the victim may think they have little to lose. (Relevant regarding Donald Trump. He has far too much ego to serve someone else for life, even if there was some "Moscow tape").
Instead, the blackmail that's powerful is the one that the victim knows will cost the blackmailer a lot to use. The understanding that if I go down, you all go down with me, is a lot more useful to make us come to an agreement. That's probably how Epstein got away with things for so long.
Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
#99Every company doles out bribes. In many countries bribery is the way to go. Things don’t happen without it. They just find creative ways to make it legal that’s all.
“Every company” is obviously hyperbole. My local deli doesn’t bribe anybody. What do you really mean - every $1bn+ revenue aerospace firm?
Who knows who comes round every month for protection money. Hopefully it's just the beat cop.
Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders
#100Anyone here actually believes it is only Airbus???
Is there evidence of others?
I’m more familiar with German companies doing it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Greek_bribery_scandal
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/LIVE-the-israeli-submari...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-41109132
And a longer list mixed with money laundering https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/25_corruption_scan...