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Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

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Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#61

Post by greglindahl »

yalogin wrote: post #48
dboreham wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it's illegal to pay bribes (for now, anyway) for US companies (to foreigners): https://www.justice.gov/criminal-fraud/foreign-corrupt-pract...

I am not advocating for companies to pay bribes. It needs to be a crime and the rest of the world must set a standard.

You might want to check out where it is a crime and what agreements big parts of the world have made to make it a crime. The article we're discussing makes these points. Or you could read about them on Wikipedia.

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#62

Post by dehrmann »

tus88 wrote: post #24
LaserToy wrote: post #21

Anyone here actually believes it is only Airbus???

Seems like international trade and bribery go hand in hand.

The EXIM bank can be viewed as a subsidy (and unfair trade advantage) for companies like Boeing. I assume there's an EU version of it that will do everything it can to put you in an Airbus today.

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#63

Post by emmelaich »

jariel wrote: post #3

In Canada SNC Lavalin same things. This is not an easy thing though: the countries in which bribes are paid are run by corrupt people who expect kickbacks as part of doing business, and there's no other way about it. If the West wants to play morally superior on this - then 100% of Airbus, Boeing, SNC, Halliburton and massive industrials will full-on go out of business. This issue is not part of the current round of…

People are shooting (downvoting) the messenger (you).

Not only are you describing the situation accurately, you are not advocating that the West just pay bribes as well.

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#64

Post by justinclift »

fnord77 wrote: post #6

> Airbus for years conducted a “massive scheme to offer and pay bribes”, involving very senior executives, according to disclosures in courts in Washington DC, Paris and London, as Europe’s aerospace champion agreed to pay €3.6bn in penalties to regulators in France, the UK and the US. So nobody went to jail, though

> US and UK authorities are considering prosecutions against individuals.

Perhaps it'll happen. :)

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#65

Post by paranoidrobot »

p1esk wrote: post #43
roywiggins wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not entirely for lack of trying on behalf of prosecutors. The courts have narrowed the definition of bribery. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=c6c23d55-f451...

So if I'm a Senator/Congressman and Comcast came to me promising $500k for my re-election campaign if only I could help them slow down Google Fiber rollout in some town, is it illegal for me to agree? I mean, this is a bribe, isn't it?

If it's structured like that, sure, but it'll not be done that way.

One approach is for a politician/candidate to hold a fundraising lunch/dinner/whatever, and charge for seats. Lobbyists and other folks who want to get access to the senator will buy those tickets and get their couple of minutes to talk about whatever issue is important to them.

Any direction on bill will almost certainly be of a more indirect nature.

It won't be: "Vote against municipal fiber rollouts, and $ISP will give your campaign $10k".

It'll be more along the lines of: "We'd find it difficult to support the campaign of someone who wasn't seen to be acting in our best interests. We think that this municipal fiber rollout is bad for $ISP."

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#66

Post by jariel »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #4
jariel wrote: post #3

In Canada SNC Lavalin same things. This is not an easy thing though: the countries in which bribes are paid are run by corrupt people who expect kickbacks as part of doing business, and there's no other way about it. If the West wants to play morally superior on this - then 100% of Airbus, Boeing, SNC, Halliburton and massive industrials will full-on go out of business. This issue is not part of the current round of…

I question the premise. The US has the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act of 1977 has already made it illegal to make payments to foreign government officials to assist in obtaining or retaining business. Somehow, Boeing, SNC, Halliburton, and many other massive industrials have survived so far.

"and many other massive industrials have survived so far."

Because they are paying bribes.

It's rampant, and almost out in the open.

Major Western corporations keep 'sunshine funds' off the books, in offshore companies, for bribes high and low.

'Bribery' as we call it, is normative in most of the world, and it's how it works.

And this is not just corrupt leaders, it's anyone in a position to benefit, from bottom to top.

As I said: the issue is how the Western public is going to deal with this information coming to light because they're completely naive to what's going on.

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#67

Post by solarhoma »

yalogin wrote: post #22

Every company doles out bribes. In many countries bribery is the way to go. Things don’t happen without it. They just find creative ways to make it legal that’s all.

In some countries it is considered the ‘cost of doing business’.

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#68

Post by [deleted] »

spenczar5 wrote: post #45
yalogin wrote: post #22

Every company doles out bribes. In many countries bribery is the way to go. Things don’t happen without it. They just find creative ways to make it legal that’s all.

“Every company” is obviously hyperbole. My local deli doesn’t bribe anybody. What do you really mean - every $1bn+ revenue aerospace firm?

[deleted]

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#69

Post by jessaustin »

p1esk wrote: post #43
roywiggins wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not entirely for lack of trying on behalf of prosecutors. The courts have narrowed the definition of bribery. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=c6c23d55-f451...

So if I'm a Senator/Congressman and Comcast came to me promising $500k for my re-election campaign if only I could help them slow down Google Fiber rollout in some town, is it illegal for me to agree? I mean, this is a bribe, isn't it?

It's rare that such large sums would go through the campaign-finance slot. Supposedly Biden received only $200k from the credit card industry for his awful bankruptcy "reforms". Of course larger bribes are paid, but they are less direct and less public. One method I've seen up close (I worked for Lucent back when they were in business) is to hire close relatives of favored politicians at vastly inflated salaries for "show-up" jobs for which those relatives had no observable skills. Those relatives would eventually transfer large portions of the millions they "earned" to the politician, but there was no hurry. In addition, there are sweetheart "investment" opportunities that somehow are only offered to politicians. We've all heard about the exorbitant "speaking fees". ISTR a mayor somewhere published a book and arranged for certain constituents to buy thousands of copies of it. Avaricious politicians have imagination.

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#70

Post by grecy »

paranoidrobot wrote: post #65
p1esk wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if I'm a Senator/Congressman and Comcast came to me promising $500k for my re-election campaign if only I could help them slow down Google Fiber rollout in some town, is it illegal for me to agree? I mean, this is a bribe, isn't it?

If it's structured like that, sure, but it'll not be done that way. One approach is for a politician/candidate to hold a fundraising lunch/dinner/whatever, and charge for seats. Lobbyists and other folks who want to get access to the senator will buy those tickets and get their couple of minutes to talk about whatever issue is important to them. Any direction on bill will almost certainly be of a more indirect nature…

So you're saying it's 100%, without a doubt bribery, but we're just going to use some tricky language so it doesn't sound like that.

America is corrupt to the very core, don't try to explain it away with newspeak or some kind of roundabout language. It's extremely common to buy the favour of politicians.

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