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Humans are hardwired to dismiss facts that don’t fit their worldview

niemanlab.org

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Re: Humans are hardwired to dismiss facts that don’t fit their worldview

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...except eating 4000 calories a day of fat and protein. Conservation of energy is the law.

Sure, yes, of course, but protein especially being harder to digest means for eating a constant mass of food, lower carb will cause faster weight loss than a higher proportion of carbs in the diet. Also, regarding your HN bio, google no longer claims "don't be evil" as a motto as of 2018.

[deleted]

Re: Humans are hardwired to dismiss facts that don’t fit their worldview

#52
Obviously, we aren’t absolutely unable to consider other views. If we couldn’t, people would never change their views and yet they do. Furthermore, evidence isn’t the same thing as a self-sufficient body of premises. We interpret evidence in light of prior beliefs. There are disagreements where those prior beliefs are concerned. The truth is often difficult to know and even when you have it, convincing others is still going to take a lot of work. Don’t trivialize that difficulty.

What this article is really circling are not these things, which are natural and with which there is nothing wrong per se, but about cultivated prejudice. Cultivated prejudice can be overcome, but it requires humility, that is, an openness to considering other views to see if what they claim is plausible, likely, necessary, or whatever. Should you change your mind, it may also require courage to state your change of beliefs to your milieu, but it is possible, even if risky in some circumstances.

I would caution against the opposite errors of relativism and intolerance toward others’ opinions. What has happened of late (a matter of decades) is that quotidian political squabbling has turned into a full-scale war because of the Left’s vicious and total attack on Western tradition and the very foundations of Western culture (in most cases, in profound ignorance of the depths of that culture). In turn, many on the Right have overcompensated by moving away from the cautious, principled pragmatism of conservatism. If you want a more measured atmosphere, where exchanges of views can take place without the strident nonsense that dominates today, then the Left has to stop its total, emotionalist, destructive, oikophobic siege on “the West”, especially as it offers no better alternatives. Nature abhors a vacuum and it will be filled with all manner of demons far exceeding the boogeymen haunting the Left’s imagination.

Re: Humans are hardwired to dismiss facts that don’t fit their worldview

#53

Right-wing media outlets paint a detailed picture of how Donald Trump is the victim of a fabricated conspiracy...None of that is correct Day 1 after the election. On Day 1 after that guy was elected the media--95 percent of it, in lockstep--said the following: "Russia Russia Russia Russia Russia Russia Russia Russia Russia Russia Russia, etc, etc, etc." For years . And then they dropped it when the shit didn't stick…

Just because no drunks were found in a weaving car doesn't mean investigating it is a "hoax". The Tinted One is just a bad policy driver who kisses up to Mr. P because he likes Mr. P.

Re: Humans are hardwired to dismiss facts that don’t fit their worldview

#54
post #45

Twice I have been through interviews that use hours of psychology assessments to filter candidates. One of those was a large hedge fund. Through that I have learned that objectivity is a measurable and identifable personality trait that is astonishingly rare. Most humans are hardwired to seek mutual security, which means banding together as a stress coping mechanism. That incidentally means some natural revulsion of…

Re: I have learned that objectivity...is astonishingly rare. As somebody who has been in many political debates, I have to agree. A good many are addicted to authority figures to tell them how to think. Another frustrating aspect of human nature is that most people don't know how to be logical . I strive to be logical as a personal goal, but it's often not valued in the work-place, or anywhere. Keep in mind "logical"…

It's not always logic vs guts. Logic is great when you are dealing with theoretical problems that are well defined and you know the variables involved etc. In real life problems, often there are way too many variables, are time bound, things aren't as well defined. It's in those cases that people resort to gut..

Re: Humans are hardwired to dismiss facts that don’t fit their worldview

#55

Twice I have been through interviews that use hours of psychology assessments to filter candidates. One of those was a large hedge fund. Through that I have learned that objectivity is a measurable and identifable personality trait that is astonishingly rare. Most humans are hardwired to seek mutual security, which means banding together as a stress coping mechanism. That incidentally means some natural revulsion of…

>Through that I have learned that objectivity is a measurable and identifable personality trait that is astonishingly rare. How does one test for this? I would like to mark my own belief to market.

Here is what it was like in these cases I interviewed. Both provided several, maybe 6, online assessments of intellectual and emotional health. Think of these like IQ tests, but they are divergent tests instead of convergent tests. That means they are testing for things like vocabulary and creativity instead of multiple choice with a prior identified accepted answer.

After testing at the hedge fund I was able to see my scores and assessments. The other place is an elite military group, and I was not allowed to see my scores unless I accepted the job. The military group followed the on screen tests by a one on one with a psychologist.

I passed both assessments but chose to not accept either job due to unrelated conditions like a competing job offer, bad timing, life conditions.

Re: Humans are hardwired to dismiss facts that don’t fit their worldview

#56
post #45

Twice I have been through interviews that use hours of psychology assessments to filter candidates. One of those was a large hedge fund. Through that I have learned that objectivity is a measurable and identifable personality trait that is astonishingly rare. Most humans are hardwired to seek mutual security, which means banding together as a stress coping mechanism. That incidentally means some natural revulsion of…

Re: I have learned that objectivity...is astonishingly rare. As somebody who has been in many political debates, I have to agree. A good many are addicted to authority figures to tell them how to think. Another frustrating aspect of human nature is that most people don't know how to be logical . I strive to be logical as a personal goal, but it's often not valued in the work-place, or anywhere. Keep in mind "logical"…

I think this is a false dichotomy.

I value objectivity a lot, but recognize that there are lots of issues in human interactions that you just cannot solve well with this approach. In trying to break it down to something tractable, you throw out the important bits.

I suspect that sometimes the resistance you find is not due to you applying logic, but instead misapplying it. For what it's worth, I also suspect that sometimes it is more like you present. And sometimes you just have different axioms, even if both parties cannot articulate them formally well enough to see this.

Re: Humans are hardwired to dismiss facts that don’t fit their worldview

#57
post #45

Twice I have been through interviews that use hours of psychology assessments to filter candidates. One of those was a large hedge fund. Through that I have learned that objectivity is a measurable and identifable personality trait that is astonishingly rare. Most humans are hardwired to seek mutual security, which means banding together as a stress coping mechanism. That incidentally means some natural revulsion of…

Re: I have learned that objectivity...is astonishingly rare. As somebody who has been in many political debates, I have to agree. A good many are addicted to authority figures to tell them how to think. Another frustrating aspect of human nature is that most people don't know how to be logical . I strive to be logical as a personal goal, but it's often not valued in the work-place, or anywhere. Keep in mind "logical"…

> Another frustrating aspect of human nature is that most people don't know how to be logical.

Many human philosophies reject logic (Or any mechanical system of derivation) as a valid epistemological device. Logic in the west is heavily shaped by Greek philosophers, like Plato and Aristotle, and then Latin Catholicism's embrace of them in the medieval times (logic is not particularly important in the eastern churches). Without the effort of the Church in the West, logic would not exist as a common form of 'proof' today. In Arabia, Greek logic was embraced by the Muslims. But, it is not a universally embraced philosophical framework.

In fact, there's not even any such thing as 'logic'. There are multiple logics in Western thought (and in mathematics and philosophy and even computer science) that are often at odds with one another and cannot be reconciled. Western philosophers like Godel even admit that logic cannot explain everything.

Of course 'logic' (and it's now in quotes to refer to your conception of it, which we've already established is ill-defined given the number of extant logical systems) in normal discourse now includes the law of excluded middle, which undermines the entire system, and is incompatible with logic's own embrace of rationality.

Let's take a quick tour around the world though.

Several branches of western philosophy do not admit logic (the way you think of it at least) as a valid epistemology:

1. Mathematical Constructivists reject universal applicability of the law of excluded middle. In the intuitionistic logic they use, the phrase 'P is either true or not true' is not one that can be assigned a truth value. This is not to say there are no propositions which one could argue successfully are individually true or untrue, they just reject the universal applicability of the law. This is really important, because in 'formal logic' the way you conceive it, the law of excluded middle makes the entire logic unsound.

2. Pragmatists (John Dewey, Charles Sanders Pierce) often reject logic outright (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatism#Logic).

Many branches of non-western philosophy do not admit logical inference as fully valid, or augment it such that it no longer fits with western conceptions.

1. For example, the Charvaka philosophy from India rejects logically inferred knowledge as always doubtful. In that philosophy, the only unqualifiably true knowledge is that which one observes. Studying 'logic' in an attempt to be 'rational' is not useful in that system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charvaka.

2. The Vaisheshika school of philosophy accepts inferences based on prior knowledge, but also accepts as true the testimony of reliable experts (shabda), thus invalidating logic as a means to truth (truth in the western sense). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pramana#Vaisheshika_school

3. The Mohist philosophy of China (from the followers of Confucius) admits analogy as a form of knowledge, but rejects formal logic in the western way.

4. Zen Buddhism often castigates logic as not only useless but potentially harmful in one's quest to arrive at truth: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-JOCP/jc26600.htm

Your idealism of 'logic' (and given that you didn't even specify which logic, I'm taking it mean you think there is only one, and that it is right) is, when considering the grand arc of human history, indefensible. You argue that it is 'right' and the way to the 'truth', but you can't even fathom that many societies, cultures, groups, and philosophers did not think it useful or necessary or valid.

Simply believing logic is right, without any consideration for an alternative, amounts to a religious belief. Indeed, given that logic remains popular mainly due to the theological musings of Thomas Aquinas, it is moreover, a heavily Christian (from Aquinas) or Muslim (from the Muslim theologists studying Aristotle) belief.

Re: Humans are hardwired to dismiss facts that don’t fit their worldview

#58
post #45

Twice I have been through interviews that use hours of psychology assessments to filter candidates. One of those was a large hedge fund. Through that I have learned that objectivity is a measurable and identifable personality trait that is astonishingly rare. Most humans are hardwired to seek mutual security, which means banding together as a stress coping mechanism. That incidentally means some natural revulsion of…

Re: I have learned that objectivity...is astonishingly rare. As somebody who has been in many political debates, I have to agree. A good many are addicted to authority figures to tell them how to think. Another frustrating aspect of human nature is that most people don't know how to be logical . I strive to be logical as a personal goal, but it's often not valued in the work-place, or anywhere. Keep in mind "logical"…

Implicit learning is real. Some guts are more accurate than others. Just like not everyone is a great logician.

Re: Humans are hardwired to dismiss facts that don’t fit their worldview

#59
post #45

Twice I have been through interviews that use hours of psychology assessments to filter candidates. One of those was a large hedge fund. Through that I have learned that objectivity is a measurable and identifable personality trait that is astonishingly rare. Most humans are hardwired to seek mutual security, which means banding together as a stress coping mechanism. That incidentally means some natural revulsion of…

Re: I have learned that objectivity...is astonishingly rare. As somebody who has been in many political debates, I have to agree. A good many are addicted to authority figures to tell them how to think. Another frustrating aspect of human nature is that most people don't know how to be logical . I strive to be logical as a personal goal, but it's often not valued in the work-place, or anywhere. Keep in mind "logical"…

A good many are addicted to authority figures to tell them how to think.

To be fair, if you have (for example) a high school education, simply taking the word of someone who has (for example) a PhD in X subject is a best practice.

From the article:

In theory, resolving factual disputes should be relatively easy: Just present the evidence of a strong expert consensus.

Though I've spent time in an anti-vax community -- because it was a good source of useful health info if you could sidestep the emotional baggage and conspiracy theories -- and some members had PhDs and at least one was also a published author. So they had their own respected and credentialed experts to argue against the respected and credentialed experts that friends and family were trying to use to attack them.

Most don't return the favor.

Regardless of argumentation style or approach, most people are basically saying "This is my best understanding of life, the universe and everything." This includes people claiming to have the logic high ground for some reason and lots of people have been burned by people looking to win the argument and making no effort to understand why they might see it differently.

Re: Humans are hardwired to dismiss facts that don’t fit their worldview

#60
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: I have learned that objectivity...is astonishingly rare. As somebody who has been in many political debates, I have to agree. A good many are addicted to authority figures to tell them how to think. Another frustrating aspect of human nature is that most people don't know how to be logical . I strive to be logical as a personal goal, but it's often not valued in the work-place, or anywhere. Keep in mind "logical"…

It's not always logic vs guts. Logic is great when you are dealing with theoretical problems that are well defined and you know the variables involved etc. In real life problems, often there are way too many variables, are time bound, things aren't as well defined. It's in those cases that people resort to gut..

I've found the lack of an ability to use basic logic to be extremely widespread down to simple conversational matters. It severely impedes and distracts conversations (online and off). I wish it were primarily a problem when dealing with theoreticals, as I find it's a problem just about any time you converse where there are many people. Emotionalism is rampant.

I have yet to find a forum - in ~25 years of near daily discussions on forums online - where incredibly obvious logic failures don't happen persistently. And I'm only talking about the basics, nothing complex.

The worst and most common, I believe, is: because you said X, therefore you must believe / endorse / be implying Y. It's some kind of emotional transitive property of logic failure.

Example concepts:

I say: Bush did X. Response: Yeah but Obama did a thing, he's worse, how can you support him?!? (Obama isn't part of the conversation at all, there was no statement endorsing Obama whatsoever)

I say: the US did X. Response: Yeah but Russia (or China etc) is evil and did a thing, they're even worse because of a thing! (the other countries aren't part of the conversation at all, I never suggested the other countries are good or bad or did or didn't do a thing).

I say: I'm in favor of an immigration system like Canada or Australia. Response: how can you support internment camps and murdering children at the border? Or more calmly: why are you against immigration? (there was no mention of being against immigration at all, Canada allows plenty of immigration via their approach)

Some of it is obviously an emotional attempt at diversion, an irrational reflex to change the conversation away from what it's pointing at for one reason or another. Logic is in part about self-control and my observation is that it's a rare quality.

I've yet to find a forum where this doesn't happen constantly, basically in every large thread. You spend half your effort on forums either trying to pre-empt very primitive logic failure responses via how you structure what you write so you don't have to waste your time later correcting people, or you have to waste time responding after the fact and noting that no, in fact you didn't endorse x y z.

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