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EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

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Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#141

Post by ashildr »

iSnow wrote: post #123
jariel wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The only reason this happened is that one company refuses to play ball" No, not at all. It happened because legislators in the EU don't understand tech, don't understand re-cycling, don't understand the industry, but they all use iPhones+Androids and wonder why 'there are so many goddam cables'. It's a very specific problem that just happens to be visceral and immediate with the people in charge: they can all relate…

Haha, I've been around when tech-illiterate regulators from the EU weren't around to stymie innovation in the oh-so important field of power connectors. In fact, I still have a box full of wall-warts from at least 5 phone manufacturers, and not one would fit on a different maker's phone. In fact, for some producers, the power plugs were even different for different models. Yeah, I so miss those days.

I have the same box, with wall warts from my first cellphone in about 1998 until today.

Now tell me, how many of those wall warts are from Apple and don’t have a USB-Port or a fixed cable? Exactly 0.

Now tell me how many of the other manufacturer’s power adaptors have either a fixed cable or a non-USB port?

All wall warts that came with any Apple Phone or iPad I ever used are still usable because they are USB.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#142

Post by gpm »

jakear wrote: post #135
joezydeco wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is Apple is heading toward completely sealed phones with only wireless charging / data xfer and they’re nervous that the EU is going to force them to keep the physical port on the device?

I wonder what that will do for security. It seems the publicly known exploits tend to use the wired connection to swipe data from the phone. It would likely be much more difficult to do that wirelessly. It would be a shame to lose the potential hardening benefits because of some lawmakers who may not have privacy as a core interest... or indeed quite the opposite.

You can always not connect the data wires to the port.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#143

Post by int_19h »

jakear wrote: post #135
joezydeco wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is Apple is heading toward completely sealed phones with only wireless charging / data xfer and they’re nervous that the EU is going to force them to keep the physical port on the device?

I wonder what that will do for security. It seems the publicly known exploits tend to use the wired connection to swipe data from the phone. It would likely be much more difficult to do that wirelessly. It would be a shame to lose the potential hardening benefits because of some lawmakers who may not have privacy as a core interest... or indeed quite the opposite.

This is strictly about charging, so a phone that uses USB for charging only, and does synchronization etc wirelessly, should still be compliant.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#144

Post by sib »

Angostura wrote: post #43
martin-adams wrote: post #37

Let’s say this rule was in place 10 years ago and we standardised on micro USB. How would it have been possible to advance to the next generation of technology like USB-C. This feels that it’s banking on USB-C being forever future proofed or wireless connections does everything we ever need.

An IETF-style process to swap to a new standard, presumably.

Which will be captured by a bunch of manufacturers who like to innovate on "cheapest / crappiest" and who will outvotes the one manufacturer who actually innovates on "best"...

As a customer, I'd like to keep the option for "best."

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#145

Post by chipotle_coyote »

tanilama wrote: post #46

I can't see a single reason why iPhone shouldn't use usb-c at the moment except to build Apple's own walled garden to charge a surplus against its customer.

The iPhone doesn't use USB-C at the moment in no small part because a large segment of Apple's customers would throw an incredible fit if they were asked to switch connectors "again," this "soon" after the switch from the original 30-pin connector to the Lightning. There were customers pissy about that for years and years. And there are still people real salty about them moving their laptops to USB-C charging rather than keeping the proprietary MagSafe. (There are, of course, also people salty about them getting rid of all other ports on laptops, which is more defensible, although it's still mildly ironic that the first laptops Apple shipped in the company's entire history that have zero proprietary connectors on them have made people so unhappy with the connectors.)

Standardization and open standards are big deals to the kind of person who reads Hacker News, but I can absolutely guarantee you that if/when the iPhone actually moves to USB-C, we will be flooded with hot takes about how that shift is just another money-grubbing move by Greedy Evil Apple to make us all have to buy new cables and/or dongles.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#146

Post by ClumsyPilot »

outoftheabyss wrote: post #131
SiempreViernes wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? The resolution states that the commission should make sure the standard can be updated as technology develops: "[...] the Commission, without hampering innovation, should ensure that the legislative framework for a common charger will be scrutinised regularly in order to take into account technical progress; reiterates the importance of research and innovation in this domain to improve existing technologies and…

This removes the incentives to innovate though. If you are found to have created the latest innovation surely there’s only two outcomes: either you can’t go to market or you are compelled to allow competitors to piggy back off of your technology en masse

When a technology matures, at some point standartisation becomes more important than innovation.

Power distribution, wall sockets and fire safety, fire hydrant connections were all unregulated and subject to innovation at some point. A fire engine from a different city could not connect to your water supply. At some point we decided that it wont do. We are gradually arriving to that point in software.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#147

Post by jariel »

iSnow wrote: post #123
jariel wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The only reason this happened is that one company refuses to play ball" No, not at all. It happened because legislators in the EU don't understand tech, don't understand re-cycling, don't understand the industry, but they all use iPhones+Androids and wonder why 'there are so many goddam cables'. It's a very specific problem that just happens to be visceral and immediate with the people in charge: they can all relate…

Haha, I've been around when tech-illiterate regulators from the EU weren't around to stymie innovation in the oh-so important field of power connectors. In fact, I still have a box full of wall-warts from at least 5 phone manufacturers, and not one would fit on a different maker's phone. In fact, for some producers, the power plugs were even different for different models. Yeah, I so miss those days.

If you think this legislation will solve the problem, you're misunderstanding the situation broadly.

'Those days' of 'many connectors' will not go away, they'll just be another layer of weird multifaceted connectors, confusion, and lawsuits with respect to the actual meaning of the legislation.

With respect to sustainability, even perfectly formulated legislation will have zero impact on the amount we recycle.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#148

Post by kevingadd »

microtherion wrote: post #53
martin-adams wrote: post #37

Let’s say this rule was in place 10 years ago and we standardised on micro USB. How would it have been possible to advance to the next generation of technology like USB-C. This feels that it’s banking on USB-C being forever future proofed or wireless connections does everything we ever need.

Micro USB would be kind of mediocre. But if the rule had been in place 20 years ago, cell phones today might be featuring SCSI connectors. And of course, all laptops would be mandated to have VGA connectors, eliminating a ton of conference room presentation guesswork.

Why would you use SCSI to charge a phone? It'd be a standardized power connector, probably like those small round ones that are used for all sorts of household appliances.

Similarly, your projector is already using a standardized power cable: The one that goes into your wall socket.

For cables that don't terminate with a regular 2/3 prong on the other end, there are a few standardized shapes there too. My monitors and PC PSUs all take the same sort of connector on the non-wall-socket end even if they pull different amperages.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#149

Post by int_19h »

outoftheabyss wrote: post #131
SiempreViernes wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? The resolution states that the commission should make sure the standard can be updated as technology develops: "[...] the Commission, without hampering innovation, should ensure that the legislative framework for a common charger will be scrutinised regularly in order to take into account technical progress; reiterates the importance of research and innovation in this domain to improve existing technologies and…

This removes the incentives to innovate though. If you are found to have created the latest innovation surely there’s only two outcomes: either you can’t go to market or you are compelled to allow competitors to piggy back off of your technology en masse

They can innovate to their heart's content, so long as the connector is compatible, and the legacy charging protocol still works. So e.g. if USB-C is the standard, Apple could still use Thunderbolt 3.

Re: EU lawmakers snub Apple's pleas, vote to push for charging cable standard

#150

Post by ashildr »

ViViDboarder wrote: post #98
nickserv wrote: post #29

Good news, and I hope it passes the commission. With USB-C there's no real reason to have other standards for charging a cell phone. And with that out of the way, manufacturers can focus on developing a universal wireless charging protocol.

Maybe you were sarcastic but... Reasons to have other standards exist because they are better than USB-C. I’ve got a lightning port on my current phone, while my old phone was USB-C, as well as my current laptop and tablet both USB-C. I have to say, the lightning feels significantly more secure. Also, we have a standard for wireless charging. Qi has been around for years. Old Nexus used to have it. New iPhones do hav…

Yeah, and once the EU defined 5Watt Qi as THE wireless charging standard we’ll be stuck with that for a decade.
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