Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#611

Post by hnaa » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 10:35 PM UTC

eqdw wrote: post #274

Discussions like this are frustrating to me because they always seem to skip over what feels like a crucial element: Do you know _why_ this uptick has happened? Does anyone? I get the feeling, in general, when people talk about wanting to "Do Something" about this sort of thing, they are always focused on managing the symptom and never focused on addressing the cause. Frequently, when I try to bring this up, the caus…

_In the Swarm_ by Byung-Chul Han does a good job explaining why this happened.

In retrospect, it's perhaps more of a miracle that we got a decade or two of relatively low toxicity from the Internet.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#612

Post by breuleux » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 10:36 PM UTC

kerkeslager wrote: post #488

krainboltgreene wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not everyone who is bigoted is an extremist, but maybe it's easier for you to argue as though this is the case. How is "I don't consider you human" not an extreme position?

Not all bigotry is "I don't consider you human".

While that's true, I think it's worth pointing out that it is a mirror of your own statement that "the average left-leaning person today doesn't see bigots even as people any more." Neither statement is true. They are the same kind of hyperbolic/uncharitable extrapolation of a group's inner thoughts.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#613

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 10:36 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #581

kerkeslager wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're proposing sounds uncomfortably like totalitarianism.

No it doesn’t. I’m just totally comfortable with a world in which people are educated enough to no longer have to consume these industrial lie factories.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#614

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 10:36 PM UTC

rayuela wrote: post #51

Encourage people to participate in physical social gatherings that center around non-political issues, like hobbies. We need to start emphasizing what we have in common, help people see that ultimately we're really not all that different from each other. The internet lets people hide behind this isolating veneer that makes it too easy to just shout at each other and behave in extreme ways that would never be socially…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#615

Post by notadoc » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 10:37 PM UTC

It's far beyond the web, polarization/toxicity is now all over politics, media, outrage mobs, protests, etc. It's growingly reminiscent of cultural revolutions and other negative historical events, which is not a good thing.

To start:

- Stop using social media

- Don't use services that have public digital scorekeeping and other vanity metrics centered around ego and narcissism

- Recall that the 1st Amendment is the first amendment for a very good reason

- Recall that it's perfectly OK to disagree with others, no matter the subject

- Recall that the more difficult a subject often the more nuance is required

- Reject divisive political and social movements

- Reject identity politics

- End outrage mobs

- End PC policing nonsense

- End cancel culture

- Don't engage in 'call out culture' or 'woke' nonsense which incentivizes toxicity, division, and mob behavior both online and offline.

As for future generations, perhaps k8-12 schools should have mandatory studies of inquisitions, mob mentalities, lynchings, witch burnings, and cultural revolutions, and the tremendously negative outcomes associated with those types of behaviors.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#616

Post by andy_ppp » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 10:37 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #405

rayuela wrote: post #51

Encourage people to participate in physical social gatherings that center around non-political issues, like hobbies. We need to start emphasizing what we have in common, help people see that ultimately we're really not all that different from each other. The internet lets people hide behind this isolating veneer that makes it too easy to just shout at each other and behave in extreme ways that would never be socially…

Encourage people to participate in physical social gatherings that center around non-political issues, like hobbies. I think there is a lot more to this than many people think. If more people participated in hobbies, then they would spend less time on the internet. The time they do spend would be more targeted and focused instead of mindlessly scrolling and scrolling and getting baited and agitated. They would also f…

Damn, this is a great idea... I’m going to try woodworking and make the shoddiest set of chairs one can imagine, but they’ll be my chairs. Could take up to a year maybe of practice but who cares!

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#617

Post by potatoz2 » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 10:37 PM UTC

im3w1l wrote: post #585

potatoz2 wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is akin to an argument that you shouldn't fire your nazi-sympathizing coworker when they discuss their support for an ethnonationalist state because they may join neo-nazi groups and "radicalize" as a result. Yes, they may. But while they do the workplace where most people interact is a livable place for the rest of us. We shouldn't make it easier to be heard if you have despicable views just because of the impl…

There are many ethno-nationalist states around. It's a fairly normal thing to want for many peoples.

We can disagree about the wisdom of ethno-nationalist states in general (in my opinion they lead to deciding that some group is a different ethnicity and using that to justify their ouster, see Myanmar, China or recent Indian laws).

Either way advocating for an ethno-nationalist state in the U.S. is akin to supporting the forced removal of at least a third of the population, which is a despicable view to have.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#618

Post by anigbrowl » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 10:40 PM UTC

mpalmer wrote: post #447

anigbrowl wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the average left-leaning person today doesn't see bigots even as people any more. I spend the bulk of my time studying extremist discourse and communities. Extremist bigots take it as read that people of the wrong ethnic/religious/political group are either not people or at best inferior people, and direct their efforts to promoting those views, planning how to eliminate those they dislike, and normalizing that b…

Why is this suddenly a discussion about extremism? Not everyone who is bigoted is an extremist, but maybe it's easier for you to argue as though this is the case. > Extremist bigots take it as read that people of the wrong [...] group are either not people or at best inferior people, and direct their efforts to promoting those views, planning how to eliminate those they dislike, and normalizing that behavior. Funny,…

Why is this suddenly a discussion about extremism?

Because that is my area of expertise and I wish to contribute to the discussion. While not all bigots are extremists, all extremists are bigots.

"Warning" and "complaining" is one thing, but advocating for the complete social and professional ostracization of people for increasingly arbitrary reasons

I'm not making an argument for cancel culture, which has flaws of its own. When I talk about extremists I have narrow and specific criteria for inclusion in that category, most importantly the advocacy of genocide.

Assuming constant bad faith on the part of people, _most_ of whom don't have any control over the views they hold

You seem to be assuming that most people are mindless, and further that I'm talking about the broad mass of people.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#619

Post by notadoc » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 10:40 PM UTC

marbletiles wrote: post #427

kerkeslager wrote: post #359

I don't know if I know the solution, but I know one thing that isn't the solution: silencing everyone who disagrees with you. A lot of the people complaining about "toxicity" on the internet seem to be under the impression that if we "deplatform" the so-called toxic people, that will fix things. But on the contrary, that makes things worse. If someone says something awful on the internet, and everyone either ignores…

The data suggests that deplatforming works. Milo; Katie Hopkins; InfoWars et al have all lost their former agenda-setting influence following deplatforming. And studies have shown that banning hate sub-Reddits does _not_ cause that content to “pop up elsewhere”, it causes it to decline overall. It’s important to remember too there are incentives for people to argue and behave otherwise: FB, Twitter, hate-speech monge…

> The data suggests that deplatforming works.

And how will you feel when whatever you personally have interest in gets deplatformed because someone else finds it to be disagreeable?

If you don't think power will eventually be applied against you, you haven't read enough history.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#620

Post by tmaly » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 10:40 PM UTC

I think good moderators and a code of conduct that is out front and visible helps.

Back when I first got online there was this idea of internet etiquette. I am not sure where that disappeared to.

It helps if the online communities can meet in person. I remember we did this with the first indiehackers meetup and it was great to see real people and make a connection.