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Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

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541–550 of 859 posts

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#541

I don't know if I know the solution, but I know one thing that isn't the solution: silencing everyone who disagrees with you. A lot of the people complaining about "toxicity" on the internet seem to be under the impression that if we "deplatform" the so-called toxic people, that will fix things. But on the contrary, that makes things worse. If someone says something awful on the internet, and everyone either ignores…

The data suggests that deplatforming works. Milo; Katie Hopkins; InfoWars et al have all lost their former agenda-setting influence following deplatforming. And studies have shown that banning hate sub-Reddits does _not_ cause that content to “pop up elsewhere”, it causes it to decline overall. It’s important to remember too there are incentives for people to argue and behave otherwise: FB, Twitter, hate-speech monge…

> And studies have shown that banning hate sub-Reddits does _not_ cause that content to “pop up elsewhere”, it causes it to decline overall.

Could you provide a source for this?

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, obviously. Do you think there aren't any anti-vaxxers with the ability to build a website?

Do you think that the average person sharing false stores on Facebook is capable of (a) finding and (b) sharing a website created by some random anti-vaxxer? The ubiquity of the platform and the ease of sharing massively amplifies the problem.

> Do you think that the average person sharing false stores on Facebook is capable of (a) finding and (b) sharing a website created by some random anti-vaxxer?

Yes. Why would they not be?

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If InfoWars says Sandy Hook never happened, and they have millions of followers, ban them. That’s a really low bar for banning. Same with Milo. Not only did he repeatedly lie in a very verifiable way, but he did it with the vigor of a bully. These are toxic people and institutions that don’t care about the facts. They’re after your amygdala, and we are, to some extent, slaves to our amygdala. You can get a PhD and st…

Who decides who's lying and who's telling the truth? Who is the arbitrator of an obvious lie. Declaring something an "obvious lie" has historically been used to keep other people down as well. This goes down a very dangerous road. Banning speech is not the right way to deal with this. When you do, you give the speaker more energy. When people in the civil rights movement in the US was slapped down, it gave speakers l…

"Who is the arbitrator of an obvious lie[?]" Easy. The final arbitrator is the owner of the platform. It is just one platform. If a platform becomes ban-happy, you can simply walk away, even if you weren't personally banned. Hacker News has plenty of rules and standards, and it will quickly mute and ban someone who violates even a subset of them. That is absolutely not a problem, and the platform is better off for it. It probably has a much larger userbase as a result, so the population of Hacker News users is dynamic, and HN can make decisions that benefit a lot of future users at the expense of a few current users. Why shouldn't HN be viewed negatively for that, but other platforms should? Isn't that arbitrary?

~Thought exercise~: Let's say you were the mayor of a large city. There are multiple areas in the city where you can shout whatever you want during certain hours. Would you let someone hook up an internet-connected megaphone in each area and pipe in hate speech everywhere simultaneously? And what if we were in a future where there were physical bots indistinguishable from humans that crowded into those public spaces, vociferously indicated their agreement, and cheered him on?

That future is now.

In reality, Facebook owns those public spaces. No one actually goes to that spot in the park anymore. Mark Zuckerberg is the mayor. Oh, and it's not just one city, he's everyone's mayor, everywhere. If you don't use Facebook but you're on Whatsapp, you're still in his jurisdiction. As for the "during certain hours" part? Nope, those internet-connected megaphones are blasting 24/7. Those bots are nodding their heads 24/7. Our mayor also collects megaphone usage fees for himself. He gives you dopamine points, likes, and social validation each time you come back for more. Freedom, yeah.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#544
post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isolation / segregation / echo chamber (whatever you want to call it) is amplifying toxicity. We used to socialize in the streets, in the marketplace, in towns. Maybe the town's butcher was known to be a bit of a racist hick, but he was still a decent shopkeeper and his kids went to the same school as yours, so you tolerated his antics. There was the town slut, the town's drunk, the guy who was a known communist symp…

As I mentioned in another comment, what happens today is that they already socialize in their own online social networks with people exactly like them. They do not tolerate one iota of dissent or open discussion, and will ban anyone with contrary views or criticism. If we allow them space on our open platforms, without demanding that they tolerate our views, that does not result in any kind of real conversation, it j…

Have you ever actually talked to people who are unlike you, or hold extremely different view points? Because this whole "the do not tolerate one iota of dissent or open discussion" is very far from my experience.

It's true, you usually can't engage people when they are pumped up on adrenaline shouting at each other on Twitter, but that's like jumping into the middle of a brawl and saying "those people will never be able to have a conversation" when they don't immediately stop fighting and listen to you. I've talked to people from far left to far right, from vegans to conspiracy theorists, and with very few exceptions, all of them were happy to explain their ideas and viewpoints and were pretty accepting when I expressed a different opinion. They may well believe that I'm wrong, but they didn't mind talking to me after learning where I disagree with them, and they didn't become combative either.

I believe a very important part about "open discussion" is to be honest and compassionate. Don't talk down to people, don't mock them, don't tell them they are scum, or evil, or destroying humanity etc and then say "they don't tolerate dissent" when really they just don't react kindly to hostile behavior.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#545

(a) Bigotry is already normalized in the United States. The president is a bigot and almost half the country voted for him. This is another negative effect of deplatforming: if you live in a liberal city and only frequent Reddit/Facebook, you live in an echo chamber where you don't have any visibility into what's normal. (b) The legitimacy of a platform is based on what is said there, not the other way around. You vi…

What did he do to call him a bigot? Enforcing immigration laws? Banning travel from countries where we can't vet people properly? Declining to have the military pay for people's sexual reassignment surgeries? Not letting people on welfare earn citizenship? Restricting a refugee system that was being abused? One of the sources of polarization is that the definition of hate and racism and bigotry seems to be broad and…

Maybe start in this extremely well-sourced article: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/trump-r...

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#547
Empathy is the one word that I think sums up the solution to this problem. And it is beyond just the web. It is a broad cultural problem in the US.

Speaking generally we've lost our ability to put ourselves in someone else's shoes.

This is the result of rampant tribalism and surely several other contributing factors including the gasoline of social media magnifying the issue.

We gotta just start empathizing more!

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The data suggests that deplatforming works. Milo; Katie Hopkins; InfoWars et al have all lost their former agenda-setting influence following deplatforming. And studies have shown that banning hate sub-Reddits does _not_ cause that content to “pop up elsewhere”, it causes it to decline overall. It’s important to remember too there are incentives for people to argue and behave otherwise: FB, Twitter, hate-speech monge…

> And studies have shown that banning hate sub-Reddits does _not_ cause that content to “pop up elsewhere”, it causes it to decline overall. Could you provide a source for this?

Probably this Georgia Tech article: http://comp.social.gatech.edu/papers/cscw18-chand-hate.pdf

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#549
post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who had a seven year account banned from YC previously for debating against socialism, you're wrong. Regular debate is labeled toxic all the time if you are anywhere to the right of pure Marxism on the political scale.

The "toxic" people are trying to be honest about real issues Sadly there are lots of reasonable-seeming right-leaning people whose discourse about 'real issues' sooner or later circles around to 'race realism' or 'the jewish question' or some other ideological Pandora's box. It's often later; a common rule of thumb among far-right extremists is that it takes at least 2 years to reliably indoctrinate a person online.…

> Sadly there are lots of reasonable-seeming right-leaning people whose discourse about 'real issues' sooner or later circles around to 'race realism' or 'the jewish question' or some other ideological Pandora's box. It's often later; a common rule of thumb among far-right extremists is that it takes at least 2 years to reliably indoctrinate a person online.

I think an equally large problem is reasonable-seeming left-leaning people who hold some opinions so spectacularly absurd in the name of ideology that it generates very fertile ground for right wing commentary to resonate.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#550

It's worse than the Eternal September. It's definitely more toxic than it's ever been, and people are definitely more polarized. The 2016 election news cycle got a lot of otherwise normal people really radicalized and hostile. Sure most of the old-timers among us remember, often fondly, the constructive insanity of usenet. And the younger generation remembers the torrent of pure id that was 4chan in the early days, a…

>Now it's invading your real life, your real-world friendships, your workplace, even your family.

I fully expect in the future for there to be a segment of the population that chooses to "drop out" of the always-connected digital social life for these reasons. And I don't just mean giving up Facebook, but going back to analog social circles only, as well as ignoring those who are still connected (and hooked) digitally.

I like to compare it to smoking. Imagine everyone got addicted to smoking, but you eventually wanted to quit because you realize how bad and addicting it is. Even if you quit though you'd still be hanging out with other smokers mostly, and breathing in that 2nd hand smoke. The only true way out would be to both quit and only hang out with non-smokers.

This won't be everyone of course. Like smoking, toxicity and polarization are too addictive, but I can see there becoming a counterculture that simply rejects all of it altogether.

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