The ability to be an anonymous troll has enabled the microminds that inhabit trollspace. The loss of accountability did it. Since the first days of the web this disease has festered - look at how many people have been harmed and hounded to suicide on FB and similar. Private chat circles where all are know have the inherent ability to defeat this - I belong to a number of them. I have no wish to troll, and I do not, but if I did the admins would soon kick me out. China deals with this with strong reles on ID that limit the true anonymity that enables trolls - does it work over there? I have no direct knowledge as I am not a mamber of any. The ability to create throwaway accounts on FB will make this hard to control. I suppose they could make each person allow new contacts as well as deny offenders would work - it would add a threshing aspect and multiply traffic as these trolls created new logins, begged their way into acceptance by a person, then offended them and got the boot.
I think FB thrives on the unhindered traffic, protecting people would reduce their cash flow = will not do it unless large goverment stick used - as in China. I handle it, as I learned, by total non engaging trolls. As they say:- dot not roll in the mud with pigs, you will get dirty and the pig likes it!!
No offense to pigs intended,,,;)
Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
331–340 of 859 posts
Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
#332Another related (possibly identical) question: How do we stop polarization/toxicity (or general negative attitude) IRL?
One possible answer: Disconnect, ignore, and avoid it while at the same gravitate towards positive, solution-oriented actions/people.
Stop banging your head against the wall, it's not going to work.
Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
#333Earlier quoted context omitted.
When reporters on Twitter freak out about the trolls on 4chan like it's some disease infecting our precious wholesome web, I can't help but remember (through my biased lenses of course) when most of the web (that I visited) looked like 4chan. What the folks who think the web is 'degrading' don't seem to realize is how much of a wild west it used to be, and how much corporations have tried to (and somewhat succeeded i…
They were right to freak out. Swastikas and the n-word being tolerated as "jokes" for years was a breading ground from which militant fascists emerged.
The suppression of speech you dislike is a much clearer indication of fascistic behavior than that of the people vocalizing such speech.
Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
#334>I've noticed a huge uptick in the toxicity online in the last 5-7 years. You're crazy my dude(tte). I've been on the interbutts since 1991 and Usenet days, and it's exactly as it always was. The big difference is we have reporter ding dongs on Twitter thinking Twitter, aka the comments section they removed from their web presence, is the real world. Also old people on Facebook who never learned the lessons of being…
I remember the AOL instant messenger days and people being super derogatory and vulgar for kicks. Even xbox live of 2007 was just as vulgar as today. I don't think its that the internet is more toxic, its that we are more sensitive (more easily offended). A strong immune system is the best defense. If it rolls off your back, is it really toxic?
What exactly is or was strong immune system response to treatment Kathy Sierra got? Cause weev later became basically folk hero for a while before he managed to be forgotten.
The just roll it off, ignore the trolls collective strategy back amounted to enabling and whitewashing weev.
Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
#335>I've noticed a huge uptick in the toxicity online in the last 5-7 years. You're crazy my dude(tte). I've been on the interbutts since 1991 and Usenet days, and it's exactly as it always was. The big difference is we have reporter ding dongs on Twitter thinking Twitter, aka the comments section they removed from their web presence, is the real world. Also old people on Facebook who never learned the lessons of being…
Exactly this. On Usenet there were still moderated groups, because there were assholes that were willing to start flame wars. The term "flame war" came from Usenet, as did "trolling". The original meaning of "trolling" was making a post that provoked a huge number of responses, be it good or bad. Now it has morphed to meaning you say something shitty.
> That's a purely American phenomenon
This is wrong. Europe turned nationalistic and right wing much earlier than the US. Look through the last 10 years and it's been something they've struggled with for the entire decade and earlier.
Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
#336Not all actors are participating in online conversations in good faith. Meaning, a big part of the problem are trolls and propagandist antagonizing and encouraging division. Part of the solution has to be stopping them.
The trouble with this solution is that not all actors wanting to stop people from participating in online conversations are doing so in good faith, even if they frame it in convincing-sounding language about trolls and propaganda. In fact, I'd say that this is probably a massive magnet to every single bad-faith actor out there, and given the us-vs-them climate it produces there's probably no way of stopping those bad actors.
Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
#337Earlier quoted context omitted.
> And people can detect between wisdom and dumbassery. Nope
Guess you should intern them at your I'm Super Smarter Than You reeducation camps then.
You've unfortunately been breaking the HN guidelines a lot by posting in the flamewar style, snarking, and being nasty. That's not a legit use of this site. We ban accounts that post that way—we have to, because they poison the well and push the site further down the classic internet forum path to heat death. HN from the beginning has been an experiment in whether we can stave off that perhaps inevitable decline. See https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html and https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
On the other hand, you've also posted some substantive and interesting comments, so I don't want to ban you. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use HN in the intended spirit? The idea is: if you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; if you don't, please don't comment until you do. When you know more than someone else, share some of what you know in a respectful way, so we all can learn something. Don't just put others down.
Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
#338You're not going to. There is real incentive to divide people into categories. People in the grey are hard to deal with and hard to manage.
Massive tech companies like google have perfected how you are supposed to move someone from unaware and not caring into the firmly aware caring and loyal brand consumer. They extend that ability to anyone willing to pay for it.
All the twitter ads all the Facebook ads all the Google ads. Doesn't matter if it's for potatoes or Trump, they have the same ability to subtly move you into their camp. Even a basic search engine in reddit or google will constantly feed you the same bs day in and day out based on what you already search for. Take Google news. They aren't going to show you too much out of your region, even in world news as an American you are usually going to see American policy and any topics the engine thinks is important to you based on your previous views.
The whole of Internet technologies is meant to divide and feed you the confirmation bias info you love. Only stuff that already aligns with your views. You take that and couple the fact that ai algorithms are literally designed to take non linear data and plop them into definite categories and you'll get independent/grey thinkers slowly being pushed to one side or another no matter how complex the data.
Unless there is a way to forcefully break the feedback loop, you won't stop it. If you sat day in and day out twirling a butterfly knife or painting or whatever, you would be an expert eventually. That's what is happening now but not with a useful skill, just information aligned with what you already believe. Then after years of programming someone comes along from the other category and tries to break your beliefs, of course you'll get toxicity because it's hard to unlearn how to paint. The brain is not meant to unlearn constantly practiced behavior.
Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
#339Honestly I don't think we're the people to do it. Software developers are grossly susceptible to the Principle of the Excluded Middle. We spend so, so much time arguing about extremes (see also the post yesterday about Monoliths being the future), while those calling for moderation only see modest amounts of support. If we want to be those people, the answer is 'personal growth', and lots of it.
Considering how much the overton window has shifted since the 80's, I find your "moderate" position extreme.
Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
#340A co-worker suggested me to be "blindly optimistic", I scoffed at the suggestion. But it seems to be helping me. Hope it helps others too, so sharing here.
It sounds to me your coworker is pushing a faith based belief system on you.