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More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

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Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#81

Post by jeffdavis »

jermaustin1 wrote: post #43

First World Problem, I know, but: I don't understand why I should not be allowed to take a 2 year vacation in another country without having to leave every 6 months and pray the border agent doesn't find it suspicious that I keep coming back. I don't want to take someone's job, or milk the welfare system, and I would be a net positive to anywhere I decided to vacation (sales tax/VAT, property tax, hotel tax, income t…

Signing leases and spending a lot of time somewhere kind of means you live there. And if you live there, then you start to have a reasonable claim to the rights and privileges of a citizen.

I'm not saying that's bad, but countries typically want some control over this process.

Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#83

Post by mtts »

duxup wrote: post #50
baybal2 wrote: post #26

I'd add some background to what fehyjn says below. The entire world was relatively borderess prior to 20th century, and it was completely outside of humanly possible for the state anywhere to keep tap on every individual. If you talk about the period from medieval, to early renaissance. It was very natural for every polity to want to get more subjects. Feudal lords couldn't have been more happy to see more people mig…

History is full of folks complaining about migrations / stranges and states / groups taking action to prevent / persiculte newcomers, and travel was not easy. I feel like your comment makes it seem a lot more fluid than it was for a group to simply migrate and enjoy their new country.

No, he’s right. It was very much in the interest of rulers to rule over as large a population as possible as that meant more tax income.

Think of all the slaves that were brought into the Roman Empire for an example. Or the laws binding serfs to the land in the Middle Ages. Or of the early modern kingdoms of South East Asia, which were essentially slave states, raiding their neighbors for their population so they could at them to their own.

That’s one aspect of it.

The other is that despite travel being difficult, historically people have done a lot of it. This has become clear in recent years as DNA analysis of ancient populations has become possible. The origins of most Western Europeans lie in the steppes of Ukraine (it might not be clear who built Stonehenge but it’s certain it wasn’t an ancestor of a modern Briton). There were Indian traders in Rome (probably to sell silk and spices) and Dutch settlers in South Africa were witness to Bantu immigrants sweeping in from he north.

People have always been mobile, it turns out.

Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#84

Post by fehyjn »

baybal2 wrote: post #12
fehyjn wrote: post #5

Still don’t understand why I can’t just move to another country... I have a degree, no criminal records. But I need visas, permits, etc. Why all this difficulties?

> Still don’t understand why I can’t just move to another country... I have a degree, no criminal records. But I need visas, permits, etc. Why all this difficulties? If you are living in first world country, you should know that you still have it very very easy. To some, a chance to move is a once in a lifetime opportunity.

It is still a lot complicated, but I agree that for some people it may be even harder.

Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#85

Post by aaron695 »

If you ever want proof HN is not Libertarian, they way it downvotes open borders shows it is not.

Libertarians don't have to believe open borders work fully but should be open to talking about it.

It's also something in the future people will judge us for. They will live in a world where richness is less border based though, so get rose colored glasses. Like slavery, easy to judge when you don't get to do it.

Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#86

Post by fehyjn »

mrits wrote: post #7
fehyjn wrote: post #5

Still don’t understand why I can’t just move to another country... I have a degree, no criminal records. But I need visas, permits, etc. Why all this difficulties?

How does anyone know you have a degree and no criminal records?

I can prove it in embassy or whatever. Take a paper from police and a diploma from my university.

Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#87

Post by fxtentacle »

youcantthrow wrote: post #49
fxtentacle wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd wager that as soon as the first homeless* person puts their tent in your garden, you'll find walls, borders and land ownership a lot more attractive. *= made homeless due to the unequal distribution of wealth in so-called free markets But that, sadly, is what the difference between a desire to migrate and actual migration boils down to. Most people in Sub-Saharan Africa wouldn't be able to buy or rent a house in…

>I'd wager that as soon as the first homeless* person puts their tent in your garden, you'll find walls, borders and land ownership a lot more attractive. you'd lose that wager. i've lived in the third world (africa) and my relationship to space and community is probably much different from yours.

That is probably correct, as I am on the side of the spectrum where I like sitting in perfectly quiet nature to relax. Too much noise or too many people would ruin that experience for me.

Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#88

Post by remarkEon »

streb-lo wrote: post #78
ravenstine wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because different groups of people have their own interests, shared culture, etc. Just because you don't mind a homogeneous global culture doesn't meant that others do or should.

Why should people in CA let people from OK move there? They probably have more in common with major metropolises world-wide than they do a rural farming community they happen to share a nation with. People are pointing out the hypocrisy in the selective application of freedom-of-movement. There may or may not be valid reasons for this but don't pretend its grounded in self-determination.

It is absolutely grounded in self-determination. That people from CA let people from OK move there is their choice. They could levy taxes on movers to discourage this no problem. And, frankly, I bet if you put this up to a vote a lot of people in (metropolitan) California would be just fine with a policy that aimed to keep those stinking farmers away.

Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#89

Post by 1996 »

mytherin wrote: post #47
1996 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Technology + No borders can destroy entire cultures. And that's a good thing. The strong cultures will survive. I don't care if it is mine or not. If it is better, it's in my interest that it wins, and that I adopt it. If you think differently, take a second to think about the implications: what exactly do you gain from a culture so weak that it can be destroyed by technology and a little immigration? Do you get so…

Stronger in what sense? Eradicating other cultures/people? Brainwashing/controlling people not to change their beliefs and stick to their culture? Are these properties you think are desirable in a culture?

Stronger in that it can survive, and that people adopt it because makes sense economically.

Cultures have no inherent worth. Civilizations live and die.

Re: More Than 750M Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

#90

Post by nostromo »

jermaustin1 wrote: post #43

First World Problem, I know, but: I don't understand why I should not be allowed to take a 2 year vacation in another country without having to leave every 6 months and pray the border agent doesn't find it suspicious that I keep coming back. I don't want to take someone's job, or milk the welfare system, and I would be a net positive to anywhere I decided to vacation (sales tax/VAT, property tax, hotel tax, income t…

Because not every country wants to be overflowing with expat techbros.

I've seen some of this resentment in SE Asia. Foreigners work remotely from paradise, which is great for us -- but the locals see you filling up the nice restaurants and renting the best apartments and driving up the cost of living for locals who, unlike us, don't have many options about where they live.

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