Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

news.ycombinator.com

171–180 of 859 posts

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#171
Stolen from reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastpsychiatrist/comments/70rbuu...:

> ten years ago Steve 'Asshole' Jobs played a hilarious prank on all the digitally-illiterate 20th century luddites by pick-pocketing their ol' trust, reliable telephones and replaced them with computers instead. Tee-hee! Let's see if they notice the difference! And then he promptly died.

> The result, we see today, is a stratified understanding of "the internet".

> One level consists of everyone who really knows what the internet is. The internet's early adopters were a bunch of nerdy white males out of touch with society, guilty as charged. Annoying athiests and such. The thing is that this group (which I count myself among) knows how communities online function because they've been part of them for decades. They've lived the lifecycle of growth and collapse of forums (platforms) again and again. They see how technology brings people together, but not the people in their immediate life. Rather, safely brings anonymous groups of people who hide behind pseudonyms and avatars together through common interest and lively discussion and debate. [...] They see the new digital medium for what it is: connections between individual users spread across many different forums and platforms which are ever-changing, rising and falling. friends/strangers/communities first, platforms/sites second.

> Another level, the social media level, is what Fruit Juice Jobs foisted onto the unsuspecting public who now think they understand current technology and the state of the art of digital communications. Of course, they don't. They are sold a bill of goods and put all their identities into profiles which are used to sell them shit. And of course now they are vulnerable to a) people who spend hours arguing on the internet and tearing stranger's ideas apart (me right now) and b) actual trolls who love exploiting psychological vulnurabilites to make their victims squirm and squee and cry and through tantrums for the sake of drama (4chan, etc.). This decade-young group has no experience in what the internet actually and take no personal responsibility for their own online safety. For instance, they assume or act like a) Twitter will be around forever and b)Twitter can just block the bad guys and create a peaceful, harmonious online community. They cede all personal responsibility to a corporate hiearchy, like they were customers in a fast-food joint demanding to speak to a manager or some shit. They see and use the old medium in the new one, as McLuhan would say. Like how every town they visit has the same half-dozen franchises, their internet consists of the same top-5 "apps" and Google. Platforms and friends first, strangers/communities second.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#172

Stop responding to it. No seriously, just stop. This isn't a "complex problem that needs nuanced technical and legislative solutions". Back in the old day, there was this saying. "Do not feed the trolls". Sadly, we've forgotten that. Our current approach is, "create rigorous 30 minute point by point take down videos to defeat their point of view". Our urge to debate and correct people who are wrong just fuels them ma…

Stop responding is a fools argument. The game has changed a lot since the days of your average internet trolls because the line between internet and reality has become increasingly blurred.

For example, I don't use Facebook. But my parents do. I've had to talk with them on more than one occasion because they would get caught reading objectively wrong things spread on Facebook by bots. Thankfully my parents trust me enough that I can be an authority on those sorts of things, but it's not something I can simply ignore. If I were to let it fester, eventually it could turn into things like 'vaccines contain brainwashing bleach' or 'the government wants to take away your spleen' levels of nonsense.

At a certain point it's a good idea to stop platforming people like anti-vaxxers but it's also irresponsible to say it's possible to just ignore it.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#173
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And one of the sides has to be right. Sometimes the facts are difficult to ascertain, but so many of the lies spread via social media are easily disproved by consulting primary sources.

But the thing is, while facts are objectively true or false, a policy choice can't be objectively right. What you often see is, policy masquerading as facts. "If you accept X then we need to do Y." "I don't think we should do Y" "Then you reject facts." Something everyone seems to have forgotten is that intelligent, well-informed, people of good will can look at the same facts and come up with different policy prescr…

As I've gotten older, I've started to doubt the idea that there are any objective facts at all, or at least if there are, the human brain has a limited capacity to comprehend and communicate them.

(Edit) This doesn't mean I don't believe in truth, right/wrong etc... it means that I'm constantly balancing what's most likely to be trueish - subject to higher quality information at a later time.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#174

Stop responding to it. No seriously, just stop. This isn't a "complex problem that needs nuanced technical and legislative solutions". Back in the old day, there was this saying. "Do not feed the trolls". Sadly, we've forgotten that. Our current approach is, "create rigorous 30 minute point by point take down videos to defeat their point of view". Our urge to debate and correct people who are wrong just fuels them ma…

'responding to it' is engagement, and there is a financial incentive for that.

So the algos are boosting controversy, to boost engagement, to boost financials.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#175

>I've noticed a huge uptick in the toxicity online in the last 5-7 years. You're crazy my dude(tte). I've been on the interbutts since 1991 and Usenet days, and it's exactly as it always was. The big difference is we have reporter ding dongs on Twitter thinking Twitter, aka the comments section they removed from their web presence, is the real world. Also old people on Facebook who never learned the lessons of being…

In other words, except for the scale, and the fact that it's infected the mainstream media, and the accelerants making it even worse, it's the same old thing? So we can summarize as "there's been a huge uptick in the toxicity online (which was always there)?"

The quantity has increased, if the quality is still basically the same. Also, I bet the average education/intelligence of the typical user has shifted as the internet user looked more and more like the typical population.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#176
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We found a lot of lies during the UK election last month. Not difference in opinions, not beliefs about whay may or will happen, easily proven lies, posted across community forums, copied and pasted to other ones, and repeated in an increasing cresendo People then believe those lies, they repeat them, and even if they don't those lies sink into their subconcious and change their behavior, not necessarily today or tom…

> Ignoring them doesn't fix the problem. "The problem". What problem are we talking about again here? Is the problem that people are believing wrong things, or the spread of polarization and toxicity? I don't care if people believe "wrong things". How's that old song go? "All lies and jests, still a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest"? People will always believe whatever they want to, regardless…

Honestly that's somewhat nonsense. People don't just believe whatever they want to believe, education and diffusion of information has radically changed humanity over the last few centuries and you're fooling yourself if you think that somehow improved communication and discussions didn't drive that. Schools have improved reading and mathematical literacy of the general population, that isn't just some made up statistic.

Humans are incredibly social beings, they hide in each other, as well as grow in each other. People absolutely can and do change their minds on all sorts of things every single day, and it's a "throw my hands up in the air and quit" to say otherwise.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#177

>I've noticed a huge uptick in the toxicity online in the last 5-7 years. You're crazy my dude(tte). I've been on the interbutts since 1991 and Usenet days, and it's exactly as it always was. The big difference is we have reporter ding dongs on Twitter thinking Twitter, aka the comments section they removed from their web presence, is the real world. Also old people on Facebook who never learned the lessons of being…

I'm really tired of mainstream articles which are essentially a reporting finding 3 people on twitter who are for/against something and saying "internet is in uproar about whatever"

There’s quite a lot of formulaic pieces written in UK media where the news outlet comment section has more outraged commenters than the original issue.

If you use dailymail.co.uk and search for “outraged” there’s quite a few examples of this formula being used.

I suppose it increases impression time of adverts which means higher price earned for them. I’m not criticising the business accumen.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#178

>I've noticed a huge uptick in the toxicity online in the last 5-7 years. You're crazy my dude(tte). I've been on the interbutts since 1991 and Usenet days, and it's exactly as it always was. The big difference is we have reporter ding dongs on Twitter thinking Twitter, aka the comments section they removed from their web presence, is the real world. Also old people on Facebook who never learned the lessons of being…

>the other media encourages polarization and demonization of the other for dumb short term. That's a purely American phenomenon

Nope, tribalism and divide et impera is a human phenomenon

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#179

>I've noticed a huge uptick in the toxicity online in the last 5-7 years. You're crazy my dude(tte). I've been on the interbutts since 1991 and Usenet days, and it's exactly as it always was. The big difference is we have reporter ding dongs on Twitter thinking Twitter, aka the comments section they removed from their web presence, is the real world. Also old people on Facebook who never learned the lessons of being…

Yes, the internet’s always been toxic, but the audience has changed. It used to be a small subset of the world population that had the money, time, and know-how to get on the internet. Now it’s the entire world, and it seems to me that the average media-consumption sophistication has gone way down. Trolls used to be a smaller fraction of the whole, and easier to ignore. Now, the signal-to-troll ratio is all out of whack.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#180
post #158

>I've noticed a huge uptick in the toxicity online in the last 5-7 years. You're crazy my dude(tte). I've been on the interbutts since 1991 and Usenet days, and it's exactly as it always was. The big difference is we have reporter ding dongs on Twitter thinking Twitter, aka the comments section they removed from their web presence, is the real world. Also old people on Facebook who never learned the lessons of being…

When reporters on Twitter freak out about the trolls on 4chan like it's some disease infecting our precious wholesome web, I can't help but remember (through my biased lenses of course) when most of the web (that I visited) looked like 4chan. What the folks who think the web is 'degrading' don't seem to realize is how much of a wild west it used to be, and how much corporations have tried to (and somewhat succeeded i…

This is my experience and perception as well. I don’t understand people who think it’s always been some civil gathering.
Post reply on HN